Westernization is too easy and has too little effect in 1.8

[Ultrix Prime]

Let me try putting this another way for the "don't need no westernization" folks.

If you play Muslim tech and do not westernize and you go 20 levels in all techs you will have thrown away 14,400 MPs on the tech penalty.

So, getting 1/2 (about the amount you could expect on Muslim tech, more the higher the tech penalty), means you have 7200 more MPs to spend on ideas and tech.

What can you do with 7200 more MPs?

You folks keep wanting to use the words "opportunity cost" - what is the opportunity cost of throwing 7200 MPs away when you do not have to? GIVE THE MATH - EXPLAIN YOUR POSITION

And mind you, that is *only* Muslim tech. For the other groups with higher penalties the numbers are even more beneficial.

So, if you are going to say "the opportunity cost is too great" you need to explain how it is that throwing away 7200 or more MPs on tech penalty is *less* *expensive*

Until then, saying that westernization for Muslim and worse tech penalties is too high an opportunity cost seems really silly on the face of it.

 

[cleef]

Just Westernized as Ottomans and I have to admit it was a piece of cake, given the fact that my country was not exactly 100% tip top shape, but i did it.

Besides the lowered tech cost, does westernization give me anything else ? Better troops ?

 

[Kalderus]

Besides the lowered tech cost, does westernization give me anything else ? Better troops ?

The ability to protectorate Indian and lower tech groups (excluding nomad hordes).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But saying "opportunity cost" means one should look at the math. If the tech group is muslim or any other group with an even worse penalty, the math, depending upon *when* you westernize, favors you westernizing.

Yes, but you have yet to show any math for opportunity cost whatsoever. That's reasonable, because it's variant, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In practice, westernization costs significantly more than your advertised pay-in, and you run into present versus future value. If your 1000+ ADM goes into coring provinces with a claim, you can add around 67 base tax. If you dump the DIP into more tax, you add another 100 even with nothing reducing the cost.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it because in most cases it's worth your time eventually, but not if your power curve is screwed too early. A good example would be Cyprus doing it before gaining enough of a power base to keep expanding while doing it, or westernizing as Tunis before conquering the Mamluk region and shutting down Ottomans to the point where they can't threaten you. In 1.7, doing that made you rich enough that you'd have terrible westernization progress rate (no longer an issue in 1.8), but westernizing before said conquest with Tunis could actually make your position worse.

You have a few special considerations too:

1. New world: Tech is so pathetically bad that you should do it at 1st opportunity, unless...
2. You're a native council. These guys are weird due to how reforming brings you up to western neighbor -2/category, so a balance must be struck on holding off versus reforming, waiting 2 techs, then starting it. IMO getting ADM 10 from reform is the best timing usually.
3. Ming: Ming is so gimped that they should use whatever gamiest method they can find at their disposal to rush it with utmost priority, though the "can't raise LA in provinces with a LA floor" (probably bug) issue makes it slightly more challenging.

The other thing that makes the westernization decision non-trivial is how much tech you really need after you get a few ideas, aside in MIL where you have plenty. For example, take a large Asian empire that doesn't westernize, but has advanced vassals and DIP + Influence + religious. You can get a LOT of ground covered nonstop.

 

[frolix42]

The ability to protectorate Indian and lower tech groups (excluding nomad hordes).

It used to be an indisputable nerf, that Indian Tech groups could not be vassalized by Western Tech. Now that Diplo-annexation costs quite a bit of DIP points, it's not so straightforward. If I am expanding overseas, I want Exploration, Trade and Expansion ideas. I also want my navy to be competitive and up to date. I am probably going to be running low on DIP points and less likely to be able to afford Influence ideas for cheaper diplo-annexation.

In other words, Kalerus is right.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It used to be an indisputable nerf, that Indian Tech groups could not be vassalized by Western Tech. Now that Diplo-annexation costs quite a bit of DIP points, it's not so straightforward. If I am expanding overseas, I want Exploration, Trade and Expansion ideas. I also want my navy to be competitive and up to date. I am probably going to be running low on DIP points and less likely to be able to afford Influence ideas for cheaper diplo-annexation.

In other words, Kalerus is right.

Rather, AoW makes the western disadvantage in vassal feeding Asia far less real. You can dump any number of muslim tech or horde vassals provinces to core for you by transferring occupation, and you can use the horde CB or expansion CB to do it. Baluchistan, Chagatai, Oirat, Mongolia, Khiva, Khorasan, and if you full annex/release they'll have your religion, convert the provinces, core their future gains with the horde -25% coring cost discount, and have enough tech to be occupation-transferred stuff even in SEA if you release them at DIP tech in the teens. Manchurian candidates can work too if they haven't reformed into Chinese tech (or Yeren, which reforms into Muslim).

Just don't use Afghanistan due to their core cost NI.

Rather than being a detriment, western nations in practice now have the full-on option of vassal feeding Asia or making protectorates + taking key trade centers, depending on which western nation you happen to be.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I think Westernization should be kept as a name, and it should be more blatantly about adopting Western customs.

Westernization should be harder, especially for more backwards tech groups, and it shouldn't be necessary except for the most backwards. China and India should be able to hold their own, provided they've had good military leadership and have numbers on their side, all the way up to 1820.

To make this so, there should be a larger number of significant tech-cost reducing effects for non-Westerners, especially for MIL tech. Although many Muslims have been able to stay up to date with MIL tech even before AoW.

 

[fetusthebard]

Westernization is being completed in Europe by the 1500's! HOW DARE THEY! Let's just forget that Poland was "western" at that time. Let's just forget that the Ottomans were "western" at that time.

 

[Zander]

Westernization is being completed in Europe by the 1500's! HOW DARE THEY! Let's just forget that Poland was "western" at that time. Let's just forget that the Ottomans were "western" at that time.

Again, the issue with way westernization works in 1.8 is that it means other tech groups are behind early-mid game and caught up late game. That's exactly the opposite of how it should work historically.

 

[Ultrix Prime]

Yes, but you have yet to show any math for opportunity cost whatsoever.

That is because it is YOU that brought up opportunity cost when I was showing Camilla that there is indeed a *value* to westernization particularly in the cases where the penalty is 40% or higher.

I did not *need* to provide math for your argument - something that you are clearly unable to do for yourself.

As to your examples that follow, these have *nothing* to do with opportunity cost. These are risk/reward scenarios. *Obviously*, if the risk odds that one will cease to exist is 1 and thus the chance of seeing the reward is 0 then there is no reward to be had in the first place.

This is *not* an opportunity cost calculation and YOU, who brought this up (in a totally wrong context as well) in the first place are obligated to provide a risk reward calculation.

Here's a hint before you type more caustic stuff followed by irrelevant things - there *isn't* a way to calculate generalized opportunity costs that can be applied at a tech group level.

What's more, the risk/reward analysis that you are attempting here is a matter more so of art, skill and luck and not math.

A good player will simply play the game, do the opposite of what you have said in each case, and then post the result on these forums if they felt like bothering.

If Paradox turned your Cyprus example into an achievement it would be done and posted in short order.

 

[frolix42]

I did not *need* to provide math for your argument - something that you are clearly unable to do for yourself.

The last time I saw TheMeInTeam attempt "math", he assumed Vijayangar's starting ruler would live to be 110 years old.

TROLLING

now go away.

You had it right the first time. It might seem hard, but just disengage.

 

[Ultrix Prime]

The last time I saw TheMeInTeam attempt "math", he assumed Vijayangar's starting ruler would live to be 110 years old.



You had it right the first time. It might seem hard, but just disengage.

Yeah, I see this now. I thought with that many posts if someone was actually just trolling everyone, Paradox would have shut them down.

Tbh, I don't know *how* to set him to be ignored, but I'll definitely hunt around and figure this out.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I did not *need* to provide math for your argument - something that you are clearly unable to do for yourself.

I clearly stated that the opportunity cost of the ADM and DIP you'd need to westernize is around 150 base tax of growth, potentially more or less depending on tech group and concessions made to westernize sooner. Considering that's an up-front gain while westernization is deferred, it's a real consideration.

Here's a hint before you type more caustic stuff followed by irrelevant things - there *isn't* a way to calculate generalized opportunity costs that can be applied at a tech group level.

Here's a hint. The person slinging ad hominems, name calling, ignoring points made, and hiding behind calling the opposition a troll isn't me. Perhaps you should re-think your approach, rather than continuing to sling dirt and point fingers. From the start my posts addressing you (and not other people than you who were quoted in the same post, apparently prompting a comically childish tirade) were focused on the reality that you do have to give things up to westernize, and sometimes those things are worth enough to delay it. I also said that you should generally do it multiple times in this thread yet you failed to bother with those statements.

A good player will simply play the game, do the opposite of what you have said in each case, and then post the result on these forums if they felt like bothering.

Like this for example. It's childish logical fallacy and will never be on topic for this thread. I wish you luck in the future with addressing the topic or discussion.

The last time I saw TheMeInTeam attempt "math", he assumed Vijayangar's starting ruler would live to be 110 years old.

You're still on about that? That I constructed an argument poorly over half a year ago? Never mind that I not only found faster ways to westernize than you were even aware of at that time (that involved exploration, but not colonizing distant overseas crap over same-continent upstream provinces like you've continued to advocate).

Apparently you're ignoring what I've said in this thread and resorting to name calling here too. I had thought better of you, but oh well. Have fun with your weak ad-hominems, non-arguments, and continued insistence on emphasizing acknowledged mistakes from months ago rather than constructing anything that roughly resembles an on topic post relevant to the thread.