western cultures do not dominate the world today, despite what you may believe. regardless, this is a forum for video games, so let's keep the discussion for EUIV and gameplay and not for silly claims like that.
Westernization is too easy and has too little effect in 1.8
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western cultures do not dominate the world today, despite what you may believe. regardless, this is a forum for video games, so let's keep the discussion for EUIV and gameplay and not for silly claims like that.
Yea, Europe shouldn't be east and west in the beginning. The west should pull ahead due to the renaissance, byzantine refugees, reformation, colonialism, climate shift, and eurasian trade shifting from the silk road to the cape, controlled by the west. There should be many small ways that nations forge ahead with -% tech costs. Even western europe should be "westernizing" the whole game.
Eastern Europe is mostly a victim of the shifting global economy and the conquests of Russia/Austria/Prussia/Osman. Every principality between Moscow, Vienna, Berlin, and Istanbul was devoured and/or made subject to those four, and then they treated those cultures as second-class citizens. The legal system of Western Europe was protected by money and might that they gained through luck and precedent more than a substantive difference in behavior. The players more than the developers use survivorship bias to judge those that succeeded as more worthy.
Eastern Europe is mostly a victim of the shifting global economy and the conquests of Russia/Austria/Prussia/Osman. Every principality between Moscow, Vienna, Berlin, and Istanbul was devoured and/or made subject to those four, and then they treated those cultures as second-class citizens. The legal system of Western Europe was protected by money and might that they gained through luck and precedent more than a substantive difference in behavior. The players more than the developers use survivorship bias to judge those that succeeded as more worthy.
Completely agree. EU gives Europe the status it has at the beginning of the 1800s, in the 1400s, without having to go out into the world and work for it. And it resigns the rest of the world to its status in the 1800s in the 1400s when it was still on par, or even superior, to Europe at that time.
Are you complaining that people are not dogmatic enough? As the nature of the problem changes, so of course should the complaints. If anything, this suggests that people are not just whiners who just want an easier game.
This is an interesting system! I wonder if this is possible to mod without breaking other things that rely on tech groups, like revealing terra incognito.
That's nice. Now I'll continue discussing westernisation like I've been doing since EUIII In Nomine days. The fact that I'm not up to speed on the minutiae of one of the recent iterations of the game is irrelevant really.
I personally believe the whole 'westernisation' system is a throwback to the old days pre-EUIII when the game was heavily-railroaded to follow a specific 'historical' direction. Gradually it's been eroded and adjusted over time (for instance in EUIII non-western tech groups received better units and better starting technology than Europe, or the big EUIV 1.7 adjustment of unit strengths), but Paradox can't really get themselves to put it out of its misery. In a game where one can restore the Byzantine Empire after 1444 or unify Germany three centuries too early it doesn't really make sense to force European domination of the earth in every game. In EUIII technology was a function of the economy and European base tax and trade income were enough to pull the continent out of the dark ages. In EUIV it's a little more difficult to do without hard penalties to tech speed or MPs (because technology is now a function of monarch points), which is why I wanted to keep/reinstate the MP penalties. However the suggestions in this thread of an event-driven 'Great Divergence' system, in which Europe slowly gets events that increase tech speed over time, seem like a good alternative to that.
At the same time, I'd really like it if there was a way for Europe to end up getting thrown back into stagnancy again under the right circumstances, while a heavily divided Middle East or China develops enlightened thought. Europe is just far more likely to pull ahead in the game thanks to it's starting conditions and if it follows it's historical path.
Is it too difficult to just put sliders back in?
Also, the problem regarding Europe is why it was overall more innovative (undeniable fact) and even then, there are huge differences even INSIDE Europe. Portugal and Spain stagnated in a grotesque way. Saying trade make countries more developed is nonsense because guess what - Denmark had barely ANY colonies, same with Sweden, and I don´t need to tell they had tons more Nobel Prizes than the iberians ever had. Maybe it was the religious view? Maybe it was cultural?
So until it´s stablished why Europe became more innovative it´s almost impossible to put a decent system in place here.
And the Mali Empire is surely a successful trading nation (think of all the gold possessed by Mansa Musa). I'm not sure what is invented by them though.
It's also mandatory as a New World nation, otherwise they're simply unplayable.
Looking at technology, the effect of MP penalties is exactly the same as tech cost penalties: more months/tech level to get the necessary points. However, a penalty to MP generation *also* makes the tech group worse at everything else that uses monarch power, like building infrastructure, harsh treatment, peace deals etc. Why do you think that would be an improvement over the status quo?
One interesting idea I had is that westernization could be about catching up in tech. I.e. when you are N levels behind a western neighbor you decide to westernize and immediately (or after a short timer) join the western tech group so that tech is cheaper. Unrest and negative events like currently. However, the end condition would be changed to having caught up, like for example being at most 3 levels behind the most advanced western tech nation.
However, I'm not convinced the current system needs to change. Some numbers probably will, but the system itself works decently well.
However, I'm not convinced the current system needs to change. Some numbers probably will, but the system itself works decently well.
I think you're right, I prefer the ideas about an event-driven Great Divergence system now.
Make it harder but also much more rewarding:
While under the effects of westernization autonomy could slowly increase, even at peace and stability could be more costly to increase.
However then you finish it you should instantly get every tech so that you will get ahead of time penalaty if you tech again.
While under the effects of westernization autonomy could slowly increase, even at peace and stability could be more costly to increase.
However then you finish it you should instantly get every tech so that you will get ahead of time penalaty if you tech again.
Why would making the rest of the world weaker better represent a weaker Europe ? Wouldn't it be more logical by that reason to have roughly equal progression for all tech until 1700?
So, I´ve also seen many AI states westernize, but I didn´t try it since like year ago. Can somebody tell me, why is it so easy now? 
So, I´ve also seen many AI states westernize, but I didn´t try it since like year ago. Can somebody tell me, why is it so easy now?
RR has been lowered, and autonomy mechanic makes increased RR trivial to deal with anyway. Additionally, AI logic has been changed so it will basically always westernize ASAP. Consequently, the entire world westernizes pretty quickly.
IMHO, westernization as it now exists is an awful mechanic. If they really want to get rid of tech groups, they can do so. But in 1.8 the ROTW lags in tech in the early-mid game and not in the late game, which is the exact opposite of any historical simulation.
Aye. Is there any country which "westernized" in the timeframe? Russia is the only example i know, but even they dont took over 100% of western European culture.