Westernization is too easy and has too little effect in 1.8

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Incompetent

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Westernisation should be disabled until maybe like 1700's ? I think that would make it far more realistic, I think it was by that time that Western Europe really started to pull ahead the rest of the world, it would also make the game more interesting for diffrent strategies rather than rushing just to westernise as soon as possible.

By the same logic, Europeans shouldn't have a significant tech advantage until around then. Make all the tech groups in the 'advanced' part of the world (Europe, but also the Middle East, India, China and so on) have an equal baseline, but then have dynamic bonuses and penalties on top as some places innovate and others stagnate. That way it can be linked to what countries actually do for themselves, rather than set in stone from 1444 onwards.

The current setup is as if at some point before 1444, Western Europeans received some sort of prophetic vision of the secret to innovation, a kind of knowledge that others could never hope to discover for themselves, only acquire from those who have been taught by the disciples of the original prophets. This is clearly nonsense when you look at what Western Europeans actually knew in the 15th century compared to their counterparts in the Muslim world, India and China.
 

stapper

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What made the 'Latin' or 'Catholic/Protestant' Europe different from the other cultural entities, including other Christian denominations was its individualism. The Catholic church from the 6st century not only learned that everybody was responsible for its deeds and had to take responsibilty before God instead of being part of a collective group but also stressed that individuals where owner of their movable and immovables. This was something that already existings embrionic in the Roman state and the Helenistic culture sphere (from whom the early church was a child) but was further pushed (so that p.e. individuals could donate to the church). Before, immovables where property of a group, clan, family, ... (p.e. the Scottish clan system) and although the right to use the ground was owned by indiviuals and passed to their children, the ownership was in the hands of the group. Already in Anglo-saxon England, individuals owned their land and could give it to people outside their family ! This made Europe different from the rest of the world and was a gigantic social revolution. Feodalism in europe was a bound between two men, not between two families. A courtier was representing his own interests instead that of the group who he was representing. The owner of land, a shop, ... was more interested to invest as he could give the investment to his heirs withoud the risk of seeing it lapse into the community, people where more interested into exploring new markets, ...

One of the problems with wich non European states where and are faced is the loyalty of their subjects and more important their (top) officials. Most people outside the European tradition are loyal to their clan, tribe, ethnic group and not to the state. Once they have a place in the administration, they are under enormous pression to give favors (money, jobs, sinecures, ...) to clan members risking, if they do not concede, to be placed outside their community. This was less the case in Europe where nepotisme and corruption was more limited to direct family. Several non European nations faced this problem on their own way - Eunuchs into top positions (p.e. Moslim states, China), state slavery (Mamelouks, Ottomans) - but on the long run, this gave other problems - of which stagnation was not the least.

This social revolution was what finally triggered the other European revolutions. When the Europeans swarmed over the world, destructing or subduing other civilisations, they didn't had much more technological advances over the other old world civilisations (the americas are an other chapter) but they had an other social system which was more adapted to change and was less sensitive to destruction if it wassn't suited to the circumstances (the individuals payed the price for errors while the system adapted itself). The other civilisations dissapeared or where forced into the direction of the Europeans. The rest is known history.
 

YuriiH

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Westernisation is hard = people complain
Westernisation is easy = people complain
Westernisation gives better troops = people complain
Westernisation gives no better troops = people complain
Westernisation takes ages = people complain
Westernisation takes no time = people complain

I think Westernisation is OK as of today. No great efforts, no great struggle - simply an update on country's mentality/social perspective.
The only thing I would like to see with Westernisation is:
an obligatory event to choose despotic monarchy / oligarhic republic* OR leave as before (with respective advantages or disadvantages for 10-20 years after Westernisation has ended) if you are Iqta, Monastic state, Tribe, Siberian Native council, etc.

*or probably, basic government type of the province you are westernising of
 

TheMeInTeam

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Westernisation should be disabled until maybe like 1700's ? I think that would make it far more realistic, I think it was by that time that Western Europe really started to pull ahead the rest of the world, it would also make the game more interesting for diffrent strategies rather than rushing just to westernise as soon as possible.

Westernization doesn't mean what you think it means. You don't advance in tech while "westernizing" whatsoever. There is no real life corollary for this game mechanic, time period or otherwise. It's just an abstraction to represent a sufficient shift in organization to allow tech to progress faster in the future. Any nation westernizing in game terms after 1700 would be expressly idiotic; the cost wouldn't even pay back at that point, and that's not factoring opportunity cost.

There's no realism argument to use wrt westernization unless you're going to take a pure realism approach to the game's system in general, but I've never seen a player who argued against westernization on realism grounds do anything but turn around and ignore abjectly unrealistic mechanics and defend them as "abstractions" or "for gameplay".

Well, ROTW needs some gameplay, and absent a better model, westernization is an important option to it. The ironic thing about players calling westernization "too easy" is that many of them are playing as Europeans and are unhappy about their inability to defeat technologically inferior nations with worse positions "because they westernized".

an obligatory event to choose despotic monarchy / oligarhic republic* OR leave as before (with respective advantages or disadvantages for 10-20 years after Westernisation has ended) if you are Iqta, Monastic state, Tribe, Siberian Native council, etc.

I would love to see a government update event in westernization. 1.6 introduced noble rebels doing that, but 1.8 removed it without a word for some reason (a common PI practice in patch notes that I don't appreciate and shouldn't be appreciated in general).

I'd like to see some effort put into making Westernizing something that isn't so easy to accomplish and isn't something you automatically do. A multi-step process that's very risky to start when you don't have a good ruler would be ideal in my mind.

Removing player agency in a strategy game is the opposite of ideal.
 
Last edited:

ahyangyi

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What additional MPs? If you refer to the monarch point penalties, they were removed in 1.7. Tech cost is the only real difference between tech groups, besides units, you can't just remove it with the current system or you are buffing some groups massively.

I think he refers to the tech cost penalty.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Back during EU4's development, there was a big discussion on having a set of variable tech group levels. The basic suggestion was that there be three major levels in each technology group representing the development of tech throughout the time period. Certain conditions could make you advance to the next level, with Europeans more likely to do this thanks to their starting point. The idea couldn't be implemented in EU3's system, and the devs didn't use it. I'm not sure if it could be modded into EU4 as it currently is, but it could be worth a try.

Tech levels would be stuff like:
Western Medieval (120% costs), Western Renaissance (100% costs), Western Enlightened (80% costs)
Classical New World (200% costs), Post-Contact New World (120% costs), Westernized New World (100% costs), Enlightened New World (80% costs)
Early Modern Muslim (100% costs), Enlightened Muslim (80% costs)
Oriental Chinese (100% costs), Enlightened Chinese (80% costs)

This system would allow most of Europe to start off behind China and the Muslim world (as they were historically), catch up with them after 50-100 years, and then pull ahead in the last 150 years of the game. Following the historic route.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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At the same time, actually completing Westernizing doesn't actually do anything besides changing your techgroup. There are no new government or military reforms that are put into effect (which is mainly what Westernizing was about) and you still have to tech up on your own. You don't get any more neighbor bonus then you got before either, meaning you have to go up quite a few tech levels before the investment of points you put into Westernizing in the first place actually pays off.
Seriously? You think that changing the tech group is not a huge boost? You seem to forget that the neighbor bonus is not only from your neighbor but also form the most advanced nation in the western tech group besides this you also get rid of the tech penalty of your previous tech group. This is powerful to the point of making tech cost only ~30 points if you also unlocked some ideas.
 

Freudia

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Seriously? You think that changing the tech group is not a huge boost? You seem to forget that the neighbor bonus is not only from your neighbor but also form the most advanced nation in the western tech group besides this you also get rid of the tech penalty of your previous tech group. This is powerful to the point of making tech cost only ~30 points if you also unlocked some ideas.

Considering that the only nations who need to westernize are in the New World, it's probably not powerful enough for the cost.

Honestly I'd just prefer the removal of the mechanic and, in the same patch, improving RotW gameplay so they actually stand a chance vs European invasion for an overwhelming majority of the game. The rest of the world shouldn't be Europe's playground for at least 300 of the ingame years.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Considering that the only nations who need to westernize are in the New World, it's probably not powerful enough for the cost.

Honestly I'd just prefer the removal of the mechanic and, in the same patch, improving RotW gameplay so they actually stand a chance vs European invasion for an overwhelming majority of the game. The rest of the world shouldn't be Europe's playground for at least 300 of the ingame years.
Sorry but I don´t agree; the New world nations pay 1500 per tech while westernizing costs IIRC 3200 points (~2 techs!) ; after the process is completed most techs will probably cost ~150 points so that is indeed very powerful but does not make the country that just westernized as savvy as the most advanced in the world which makes sense; having said that any decent player should be able to tech up and be as advanced as any other European country within 50 years or so.
 

Haccoude

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Back during EU4's development, there was a big discussion on having a set of variable tech group levels. The basic suggestion was that there be three major levels in each technology group representing the development of tech throughout the time period. Certain conditions could make you advance to the next level, with Europeans more likely to do this thanks to their starting point. The idea couldn't be implemented in EU3's system, and the devs didn't use it. I'm not sure if it could be modded into EU4 as it currently is, but it could be worth a try.

Tech levels would be stuff like:
Western Medieval (120% costs), Western Renaissance (100% costs), Western Enlightened (80% costs)
Classical New World (200% costs), Post-Contact New World (120% costs), Westernized New World (100% costs), Enlightened New World (80% costs)
Early Modern Muslim (100% costs), Enlightened Muslim (80% costs)
Oriental Chinese (100% costs), Enlightened Chinese (80% costs)

This system would allow most of Europe to start off behind China and the Muslim world (as they were historically), catch up with them after 50-100 years, and then pull ahead in the last 150 years of the game. Following the historic route.
I'm highly in favor of a system like this. The advantage of Western would be that going from Medieval to Renaissance to Enlightenment would be easier for them, than going to enlightened would be for other groups.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Sorry but I don´t agree; the New world nations pay 1500 per tech while westernizing costs IIRC 3200 points (~2 techs!) ; after the process is completed most techs will probably cost ~150 points so that is indeed very powerful but does not make the country that just westernized as savvy as the most advanced in the world which makes sense; having said that any decent player should be able to tech up and be as advanced as any other European country within 50 years or so.

Without heavy optimizations or lots of nearby CNs, your tech costs end up only having a reduction of 20-30%. So they're closer to 400 each. If you're playing as the Mesos or Andes, tech costs will be even higher since you don't get the free techs (with lots of leftover points for ideas while you wait for the Europeans to get more tech levels ahead so that you can Westernize) from reforming your government first.
 

Freudia

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Sorry but I don´t agree; the New world nations pay 1500 per tech while westernizing costs IIRC 3200 points (~2 techs!) ; after the process is completed most techs will probably cost ~150 points so that is indeed very powerful but does not make the country that just westernized as savvy as the most advanced in the world which makes sense; having said that any decent player should be able to tech up and be as advanced as any other European country within 50 years or so.

But for those in Asia, eastern Europe, and now Africa, westernization is a trap. That's what I mean by it not being powerful enough. You pay several thousands of monarch points to get mildly cheaper tech on those nations (and those nations make up a large bulk of nations who are westernizing at the moment), and if you don't westernize within the first 150 years, then you'll likely not catch up soon enough for it to matter anyways.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Without heavy optimizations or lots of nearby CNs, your tech costs end up only having a reduction of 20-30%. So they're closer to 400 each. If you're playing as the Mesos or Andes, tech costs will be even higher since you don't get the free techs (with lots of leftover points for ideas while you wait for the Europeans to get more tech levels ahead so that you can Westernize) from reforming your government first.
Without free techs the price of tech goes down because the neighbor bonus goes up but ofc if the NA contries get the techs instantly they have an advantage (...) Unless the game is bugged (IDK) the number of nearby CNs does not matter for the price of tech because once you are in the western tech group the neighbor bonus always comes from the most advanced country in that tech group.
 

Fishman786

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What additional MPs? If you refer to the monarch point penalties, they were removed in 1.7. Tech cost is the only real difference between tech groups, besides units, you can't just remove it with the current system or you are buffing some groups massively.
Sorry, didn't know they were gone. In that case, they should be re-instated, since technology is primarily a function of monarch points. Or maybe removed all together, I'm not sure. Some all-round rebalancing would be necessary for this proposal.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Without free techs the price of tech goes down because the neighbor bonus goes up but ofc if the NA contries get the techs instantly they have an advantage (...) Unless the game is bugged (IDK) the number of nearby CNs does not matter for the price of tech because once you are in the western tech group the neighbor bonus always comes from the most advanced country in that tech group.

Just to be clear, when a tribal nation reforms their government (have all native ideas and a Western neighbor) their technology instantly jumps up to whatever their neighbor has for free, and they adopt the government type of one of the Western nations they border (using the overlord if the neighbor is a CN). There is no cost or penalty for doing this, other then losing their tribal ideas and buildings.

Westernizing costs a lot of monarch points, takes awhile to finish, and comes with a bunch of negative events in the mean time. Finishing it has no effect but to change your base technology costs and to determine which is the primary contributor of your neighbor bonus for tech.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Westernization costs 5000 in the new world. It scales up based on your tech penalty.
Thanks, I did not remember because the last time I played with a new world country was in 1.4, I also made a new world empire with Granada but ofc they are in a different tech group; anyway that still does not change the big picture instead of ~2.1 techs we're talking about ~3.3 but it does increase the time needed to finish the process which is always a problem. Regardless if one does not westernize (or becomes a protectorate) we're dead anyway so in my book it is worth it.
 

anomanderus

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Europe had a snowballing of different factors during the period which gave them a significant technological edge. This is arguably more due to circumstance, rather than Western Europe being "better" than ROW.

Representing it in-game as a blanket penalty to all other tech-groups, with the akward "flip-a-switch" to westernize if you have the right neighnour, poorly models this IMHO. It would probably be better represented by things like "enlightenment" government forms, ideas, etc, possibly unlocked by DHEs. The "Western edge" should be closer tied to the societal upheavals caused by things like the reformation and the 30-years wars, rather belonging to some arbitrarily defined tech group.

I would hardly call a mass intellectual movement "circumstance". The structure of European culture and it's development lead to a superior technological base. Even today Western cultures dominate the world.