Westernization is too easy and has too little effect in 1.8

[TheDarkMaster]

The newest form of Westernization is way too easy to accomplish right now. By increasing autonomy, you can prevent any revolts from happening, and the rebel spawning events don't create enough rebels to be a threat. The most dangerous events to you are the ones that simply take away legitimacy or stability, since they make you more likely to end up with positive unrest in your provinces. Even then, it is quite easy to convert from pagan to Christian while Westernizing with few to any revolts. The AI Westernizes with extreme ease and frequency. At the end of a full 380 year game, the vast majority of non-hoard nations in the game will be Westernized. The only ones who won't be are generally those who haven't had the chance to do so yet, or have some mechanic preventing it. Often non-Easter/non-Muslim nations will be Westernized withing 50 years of gaining a boarder with a Western nation.

At the same time, actually completing Westernizing doesn't actually do anything besides changing your techgroup. There are no new government or military reforms that are put into effect (which is mainly what Westernizing was about) and you still have to tech up on your own. You don't get any more neighbor bonus then you got before either, meaning you have to go up quite a few tech levels before the investment of points you put into Westernizing in the first place actually pays off. After an AI nation does finish Westernizing, they often spend a good 50-100 years catching up in tech, during this time they won't buy any new ideas and tend to be fairly passive when it comes to expansion while they try to save their points.

I'd like to see some effort put into making Westernizing something that isn't so easy to accomplish and isn't something you automatically do. A multi-step process that's very risky to start when you don't have a good ruler would be ideal in my mind. Also, succeeding should give a big immediate tech boost, similar to the tech gain that tribes get when reforming their government. Westernizing should be a big deal with a serious impact on a nation whether they succeed or fail.

 

[Beagá]

Agree. System is a joke, with many people in Europe doing it before 1550 sometimes and the likes of Morocco trying it too very early, when they get the chance. In my Hungary game Muscowy westernized in 1520, lagged behind in military tech, and was obliterated slowly. They DOWed Lithuania with tech level 9 when they had tech level 7.

Results are predictable: loss of 4 provinces and a slow spiral of destruction.

 

[victimizer]

I just disable the whole thing. Westernization is a silly notion.

 

[PhroX]

Westernisation shouldn't have that much of an effect. Western Europe wasn't "better" than the rest of the world for the vast bulk of EUIV's time period, only really moving ahead in the last 50 or so years of the game.

 

[Beagá]

That´s silly.

Technology exploded late, yes, but the seeds were planted long ago. While Europe stopped doing huge fratricidal religious wars after 1650, guess what - the muslims do that even today. Ottomans lagged behind because of TONS of social structure failures that stopped innovation. Same with China.

It´s not like magically Europe developed the steam engine while living medievally all the way to 1750.

 

[Haccoude]

That´s silly.

Technology exploded late, yes, but the seeds were planted long ago. While Europe stopped doing huge fratricidal religious wars after 1650, guess what - the muslims do that even today. Ottomans lagged behind because of TONS of social structure failures that stopped innovation. Same with China.

It´s not like magically Europe developed the steam engine while living medievally all the way to 1750.

Which doesn't really counter his argument. While you are correct that the seeds of European domination and exploding technology lies in the middle of EU4's timeframe (or maybe even the start of it), that doesn't change that in EU4 European technology explodes already from the start. A much better idea than Westernization could be elastic and flexible tech groups, with the every non-Western tech group hovering about 110-130% tech costs as their standard tech costs, but with American natives having an additional +100% - +200% until their continent is experiencing widespread European colonization (with the "continents" for this purpose being Middle America, South America and North America), while Europeans get a tech cost reduction (or all other tech groups get an increase) around the early 18th century. Similar to when Administrative Efficiency starts appearing.

 

[Carmilla]

Westernization(somehow it feels like it should be called modernization rather than westernization) as it currently stands is pretty much a waste of time. The only thing I got out of it as far as I could see was slightly faster tech progression and that was about it. So it's basically a lot of hassle for no reward.

 

[SacredDatura]

Westernization does indeed seem too easy. In my current game I was fighting a massive war against Russia while westernizing, and I felt confident enough to start a war against most of India at the same time. And I was practically the only one of my neighbours who hadn't westernized. Even podunk AI Sibir had westernized off Russia before me.

The rewards are still worthwhile, I think - as a Muslim tech nation losing that 40% malus is pretty good. Maybe it should work like in EU3, where westernization moves you up a tier instead of vaulting you straight to western. This way you don't have some Burmese minor teaching faster than the Ottomans.

 

[ChildeR]

At the same time, actually completing Westernizing doesn't actually do anything besides changing your techgroup. There are no new government or military reforms that are put into effect (which is mainly what Westernizing was about) and you still have to tech up on your own. You don't get any more neighbor bonus then you got before either, meaning you have to go up quite a few tech levels before the investment of points you put into Westernizing in the first place actually pays off.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get more neighbor bonus. The whole western tech group counts as neighbors afterwards so unless the ones who were your neighbors anyway are most advanced, your neighbor bonuses will increase. If you complete westernization with a large number of monarch points remaining, which seems quite easy, there's also a window where you can benefit from both the western tech cost and -10% from western arms trade. That's more of an exploit than a feature, though.

But yeah, it's easy, definitely. I did it in about seven years as Poland in early 1500s (just to test 1.8, it's not actually very beneficial) and the worst I got hit with was losing my army tradition. Two event rebellions that were much smaller than my army and no unrest-related rebels at all.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get more neighbor bonus. The whole western tech group counts as neighbors afterwards so unless the ones who were your neighbors anyway are most advanced, your neighbor bonuses will increase. If you complete westernization with a large number of monarch points remaining, which seems quite easy, there's also a window where you can benefit from both the western tech cost and -10% from western arms trade. That's more of an exploit than a feature, though.

But yeah, it's easy, definitely. I did it in about seven years as Poland in early 1500s (just to test 1.8, it's not actually very beneficial) and the worst I got hit with was losing my army tradition. Two event rebellions that were much smaller than my army and no unrest-related rebels at all.

As far as I can tell, neighbor bonus applies based on the actual neighbors you have regardless of your techgroup. So completing Westernization won't change your neighbor bonus if you only have one Western tech nation as a neighbor, since that neighbor was already giving you the bonus beforehand.

 

[huyderman]

Europe had a snowballing of different factors during the period which gave them a significant technological edge. This is arguably more due to circumstance, rather than Western Europe being "better" than ROW.

Representing it in-game as a blanket penalty to all other tech-groups, with the akward "flip-a-switch" to westernize if you have the right neighnour, poorly models this IMHO. It would probably be better represented by things like "enlightenment" government forms, ideas, etc, possibly unlocked by DHEs. The "Western edge" should be closer tied to the societal upheavals caused by things like the reformation and the 30-years wars, rather belonging to some arbitrarily defined tech group.

 

[Beagá]

A better process is too late to be implemented in this version, but for EU5 a system that combines sliders with Victoria 2´s westernization process might be nice.

So most people outside Europe would have a Innovative slider all the way to a bad position, and Europe a little better. Therefore you could change your society to something more innovative slowly and at a cost. You have to give choice, but at the same time not allow things to change TOO fast.

 

[lolciokuba]

Westernisation should be disabled until maybe like 1700's ? I think that would make it far more realistic, I think it was by that time that Western Europe really started to pull ahead the rest of the world, it would also make the game more interesting for diffrent strategies rather than rushing just to westernise as soon as possible.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Westernisation should be disabled until maybe like 1700's ? I think that would make it far more realistic, I think it was by that time that Western Europe really started to pull ahead the rest of the world, it would also make the game more interesting for diffrent strategies rather than rushing just to westernise as soon as possible.

That only works for some techgroups. Nations in the America tech groups don't have much choice but to Westernize due to how expensive their tech costs are.

 

[Fishman786]

Get rid of westernisation and tech penalties for non-western countries. Base tax, trade, neighbour bonuses and the additional MPs should be enough to allow Europe to rise to the top. Allow westernisation of military units after a certain point.

 

[lolciokuba]

That only works for some techgroups. Nations in the America tech groups don't have much choice but to Westernize due to how expensive their tech costs are.

Well than maybe it would be a good idea to develop a diffrent mechanic for native americans and others? Do it through decisions or certain level of technology. As I dont really like seeing nations drop their muslim/indian etc. character in 16th century.

 

[Umbosch]

It can be easy. Before i testing the beta not one rebellspawn. But as i play the beta it was my doom. I have never seen so many rebellspawn at same time. And vasalls will never support you again rebellspawn before AoW. Its important to change the right decision at westernisations event. That can half the rebellspawn. For some nations there is not enough time for a high legitimacy. At 1585 AC i have not the time that my legitimacy go from 0 to 50!

 

[Freudia]

Get rid of westernisation and tech penalties for non-western countries. Base tax, trade, neighbour bonuses and the additional MPs should be enough to allow Europe to rise to the top. Allow westernisation of military units after a certain point.

This here is the winner. Western Europe is already pre-destined to come out on top in EU4 largely due to their positioning on the map. They don't need better tech speeds to do that.

Of course, I say that, but the AI is really bad at teching...

 

[ChildeR]

Get rid of westernisation and tech penalties for non-western countries. Base tax, trade, neighbour bonuses and the additional MPs should be enough to allow Europe to rise to the top. Allow westernisation of military units after a certain point.

What additional MPs? If you refer to the monarch point penalties, they were removed in 1.7. Tech cost is the only real difference between tech groups, besides units, you can't just remove it with the current system or you are buffing some groups massively.

 

[LastSalian]

First of all, westernization should be renamed to modernization not to allow people to argue on whether or not and when westerns were better than Ming, for example.

Second, after completing westernization, double the original army tradition of a country. Unlike what some people wrongly believe, army tradition represents the army expertise of a given country, not just the experience accumulated. Modernization, even from antiquity, was always mainly driven by military goals, and seek to improve the existent army by emulating and incorporating foreign tools and tactics. It's utterly absurd to get your army tradition to 0 after you complete modernization. On that regard, keeping your tech group units (as currently), makes sense.

Third, similarly to other decisions and events, after completing westernization, you should get a 10% tech cost reduction for 20 years.

Finally, to compensate for countries modernizating like pop corn, modernization should give a juicy CB to neighbors like "Convulsed Nation" similar or equals to overseas CB.