Westernazation needs more requeriments

[TheMeInTeam]

Ideally I think they should remove Westernization completely (doesn't make sense for time period). Quite a radical move, but reasonable if non-Western tech and units are buffed as they should be.

Yes, I do agree. That or allow it but make it extremely expensive and difficult, such that in many cases one would prefer to keep their tech and not endure it. It would be refreshing to see more viable unit choices in the game.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

I think that it should be harder for the Cherokee to westernize, than say, Poland.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think that it should be harder for the Cherokee to westernize, than say, Poland.

It is. Cherokee has to burn a lot more MP to finish westernization than Poland, and will likely run into awful religious unity issues or stay stuck Pagan even so.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

Note that a lot of the "technology" in-game is social innovation; things like "The Constitution" or "The Enlightenment" aren't physical objects per se, but represent ideas shaping your country. That's one reason why I've always seen Westernization as including an element of social restructuring (on the order of Peter the Great's Russia or the Five Civilized Tribes), in order to allow new ideas to percolate more readily through society (thus why your tech costs go down to the western level).

Good point. But let's get this... ideas such as you describe enter the Westernizing nation (I'll take Japan as prototype) but their meanings change. The Japanese Imperial Constitution has little to do with European liberal ideas; the divinity of the Emperor was clearly stated; the rights of speech or movement were defined as granted by the divine Emperor, and the Diet was defined as advisory body to assist the Emperor in legislative works, not independent from the Emperor. These are just a couple of examples that the "tool" known as the Constitution found a different application. Likewise, "the Enlightenment" was understood as a propaganda tool to encourage Japan to acquire Western knowledge, particularly in areas of science and technology. Japan had a civil war during its "Westernization" process, as represented by the revolt risk in the game. That's fine, but neither side of the civil war - Imperial and Shogunate - was fighting for an imported Western idea. The Restoration took place in form of reviving a defunct yet existing political organ. As a result, Japan before and after the Restoration is still fundamentally Japanese, with Japanese values, norms and social systems, and certainly not European. So, France and Japan both research "The Enlightenment." Does it mean the same thing to both nations? Probably not. Is it useful to both nations? Probably.

Sure, the "Westernization" of the Five Tribes had a much more assimilatory aspect to it. But that's quite understandable, given the proximity and the pressure. Adopting religion is a big thing in the process, but even then, adopting a European religion does not mean an automatic value shift. I can't say much about them nor about Russia because I'm simply not a part of their worlds, I cannot see how their value system works, how their society functions, how they interact with each other, how similar or different their behaviors are in comparison to "Western" cultures, etc. But this is one thing I can say with confidence; a Shamanist may convert, but still believes in the new God as if he's worshipping a new god (smallcase). You can dress a farmer in business suit, but he will still think and act like a farmer. Give muskets to a samurai, the samurai will still hold on to Samurai ethos, etc.

And just an added note on the game itself. The pop-up for completing Westernization now gives a short text that tells you exactly this: they successfully modernized their military to the Western standard. It doesn't say anything else about it. There used to be just "We're done!" with OK button, but now they give more hint on what they think of in-game Westernization is. It doesn't say "now we join the rank of the European nations as one of their equals" or "we're not uncivilized nation we're used to be, now we got it for real." No, just the military.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

The Portugese conquests were unbelievably easy for Portugal. I have also never seen the ai attack India before it is actually historical. Maccau successfully fended of Portugal? Because I was under the impression Portugal conquered Malacca in 1511, and the force that did it numbered only 12,000 Portugese? Am I wrong because this is what every historian of European Colonialism claims.

To be clear the player can't use the brain to do things the ai never does/can't do then complain about how easy it is. The AI struggles very hard on any naval invasion; if you make colonialism harder you will find it is 18,000 and none of the colonization of Asia has happened by the ai but low and behold the player will have total and absolute monopoly on everything east of the muslim tech.....

Early colonization is just a player exploit; the things the ai colonize "early" is historical.

But note that the Portuguese conquests were confined to the port cities scattered around the world where they could use naval bombardments. This is a limitation of the game engine tiself; There is no naval bombardment mechanics in the game itself (other than blockades), and the Portuguese tercios in-game would march deep into China or India, slaughter their enemies in open field battles as if it's nothing. It's the latter part that I find problematic.

 

[Patter Song]

I think that it should be harder for the Cherokee to westernize, than say, Poland.

It is, Poland has to spend 2,400 points while the Cherokee spend 5,000 points.