Western Europe 1337-1469 - The Rose, the Lily, and the Oak

[mjohnson85]

Could I get a screenshot of the map of Wales? Just incase there's any input I can give you that may help.

Provincecs:

Counties:

Duchies:

 

[HrPeanut]

Denmark was really messy from what I remember (it has been a while since I worked on that area). I ended up settling on the syssel system for count tier titles and IIRC i used hundreds as barony/holding names. Denmark was such a challenge because it seemed to be in a transition from 2 different administrative breakdown systems throughout the planned timeline of the mod. Therefore I chose the one that made the most sense gameplay wise. I've tried to keep the native spelling for towns/castles/baronies. I am not using however the same type of localisation that SWMH uses (warping things like the kingdom names to native tongue). I would prefer to use historical names for the towns etc but I simply don't have the time to research them all so I am depending on input from others to update those.

The problem with Denmark is that a proper tier/title system like those in France or England never really was developed during the middleages, but was first introduced in 1671 by royal decree. Before this there were no such titles as baron or count. Only Holstein had the titles Graf (Count) because they were german vassals.

To be counted among the nobility you had to own farm estate above a certain size. Privileges were primarily tied to farms and not titles. A noble, who did not have a title was simply reffered to as Herremand (English: Landlord). It is to be noted that the King can be counted as landlord because he was among those who owned the most land in Denmark (The royal demesne).

The royal demesne was granted as Len (English: fief) to the Kings most valued advisers and vassals. A person who recieved a Len would be called a Lensmand (Don't know if there is an equal word in english. Maybe seigniory). A len was not necessarily hereditary and the lensmand was tasked to administer the royal demesne in their given territory.

The only landed title besides Herremand and Lensmand, which was not tied to the King's council, was Hertug (This is the modern danish word. I do not know if the german variant Herzog was used in the middleages. English: duke). A hertug was a vassal of the King tasked to protect a parts of the country. I do not know if they were hereditary.

I would suggest that vanilla titles would map to something like:

Baron = Herremand
Count = Lensmand
Duke = Hertug
King = Hertug (I do not know if Hertug should be duke or king level. Probably king level to match the other realms)
Emperor = King
​

Your decision to use syssels and hundreds as provinces is okay, as I probably would have done the same.

 

[mjohnson85]

Yea, there are a couple of areas of the map that are in the same boat as Denmark, although Denmark is particular was a mess.

 

[Nachtkip]

Can you give me a screenshot in holland/Belgium region?

 

[mjohnson85]

Can you give me a screenshot in holland/Belgium region?

Ignore that black area - it won't really be there.

I know Zeeland is not accurate land mass wise - i have a better version but I am not porting it yet because I am still heavily modifying the height map overall.

Provinces:

Counties:

Duchies:

 

[Keizer Harm]

Made me wonder: why do you use Guelders for Gelre but Friesland for Frisia?

 

[Moarice]

The problem with Denmark is that a proper tier/title system like those in France or England never really was developed during the middleages, but was first introduced in 1671 by royal decree. Before this there were no such titles as baron or count. Only Holstein had the titles Graf (Count) because they were german vassals.

To be counted among the nobility you had to own farm estate above a certain size. Privileges were primarily tied to farms and not titles. A noble, who did not have a title was simply reffered to as Herremand (English: Landlord). It is to be noted that the King can be counted as landlord because he was among those who owned the most land in Denmark (The royal demesne).

The royal demesne was granted as Len (English: fief) to the Kings most valued advisers and vassals. A person who recieved a Len would be called a Lensmand (Don't know if there is an equal word in english. Maybe seigniory). A len was not necessarily hereditary and the lensmand was tasked to administer the royal demesne in their given territory.

The only landed title besides Herremand and Lensmand, which was not tied to the King's council, was Hertug (This is the modern danish word. I do not know if the german variant Herzog was used in the middleages. English: duke). A hertug was a vassal of the King tasked to protect a parts of the country. I do not know if they were hereditary.

I would suggest that vanilla titles would map to something like:

Baron = Herremand
Count = Lensmand
Duke = Hertug
King = Hertug (I do not know if Hertug should be duke or king level. Probably king level to match the other realms)
Emperor = King
​

Your decision to use syssels and hundreds as provinces is okay, as I probably would have done the same.

You reminded me of something. The nobility system in Poland was also way different from the usual. Any family with a noble status (that could be granted by the king until 1641 and the Sejm [English: Parliament. Sort of.] afterwards) was considered equal to each other (at least officially), very well shown by the saying:
"Szlachcic na zagrodzie równy wojewodzie."
Which roughly means
"A nobleman on the croft is an equal of a voivode."

The only thing somewhat similiar to title differences was how the nobility was often divided into one of the four groups:
Magnaci (The Magnates) - The richest families in the country.
Szlachta Średnia (The Middle Nobility) - Comprised of those families which owned at least one village. It was also the biggest group.
Szlachta Zagrodowa (The Farm Nobility) - Owners of small estates or parts of villages.
Gołota (Kinda hard to translate but comes from the word "goły" which roughly translates to nude/barefooted) - They owned nothing and, other than getting the privilege of voting in the Sejm and being able to work with a szabla (saber) attached to their belts, were pretty much the same as peasants.

If I was to suggest how to deal with the vanilla titles, I'd try this:
Baron - Sołtys (The closest thing I could think of, but it was not hereditary)
Count - Pan (Caution - This particular one may be arguable, as the word "Pan" is equivalent to the English "Sir", but I decided to choose this one because of the whole "All the nobles are equal, but some are more equal than others" thing)
Duke - Wójt
King - Wojewoda (Książę may also work, but Wojewoda was used much more often)
Emperor - Król

Also, there was one rule which would be extremely problematic to show in the game.
"Wasal mojego wasala nie jest moim wasalem."
"A vassal of my vassal is not my vassal."

Honestly, all things combined, the only thing I could think of to properly represent Poland would be to make a completely new, complicated and incredibly hard to code government type.
Or, if it's even possible to code, making it so that you could do actions like imprisoning, granting titles, transfering vassals etc. only to your own direct vassals. But like I said, I doubt it's even codable.

 

[Nachtkip]

Im not really accepting the Brabant county for Eindhoven and s'Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) Brabant county would be better for Brussel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meierij_van_'s-Hertogenbosch for what you now named Brabant

 

[mjohnson85]

Im not really accepting the Brabant county for Eindhoven and s'Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) Brabant county would be better for Brussel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meierij_van_'s-Hertogenbosch for what you now named Brabant

Makes sense. Would shortening it to Meierij work?

 

[mjohnson85]

Made me wonder: why do you use Guelders for Gelre but Friesland for Frisia?

Probably dependent on what language I was reading the information from in translation. I am sure there are inconsistencies like this all over the map. Generally I anglicize noble titles so I know what I am reading.

 

[Nachtkip]

Would work for the game yes

 

[Keizer Harm]

Would work for the game yes

I disagree... Calling that land Meierij is like England "Kingdom". 's-Hertogenbosch is the name of the place the Meierij was named after.

 

[mjohnson85]

Couple things to keep in mind - colors for peerage titles are randomly generated, not final. Various parts of the map (graphical and history) are massively unfinished or test versions (like the hyper detailed river systems which is already getting replaced by a simplified and more accurate river map).

I basically spent the whole day attempting to finish as much as I could of Italy so I haven't gone through all your guys' comments yet so don't be annoyed if you don't see things updated - it will come.

 

[Nachtkip]

Hmm we never say Meijerij of s'Hertogenbosch we do shorten it to Meijerij or Meijerij of Den Bosch, Maybe use Meijerij of Den Bosch?


mjohnson im gonna test the sneakpeak abit

 

[Nachtkip]

Alright shouldnt Burgundy take over duchy of Brabant for Philipe the Good?
Why are there catalans in italy?
Boats clip into land.

 

[mjohnson85]

Don't try to play lol nothing will work Positions are blank hence clipping weirdness.

I haven't ported over title priorities or unique localizations yet.

Those Borgia are catalan afaik.

 

[ngppgn]

Don't try to play lol nothing will work Positions are blank hence clipping weirdness.

I haven't ported over title priorities or unique localizations yet.

Those Borgia are catalan afaik.

Technically, the Borgia, (or Borja, as their originating family called themselves in Spain) hailed from Valencia. -I haven't checked the game yet, so I don't know if you have Valencia as catalan.

 

[Nachtkip]

Actually its playable as england just dont expect to have kids with traits

 

[mjohnson85]

Technically, the Borgia, (or Borja, as their originating family called themselves in Spain) hailed from Valencia. -I haven't checked the game yet, so I don't know if you have Valencia as catalan.

I have Valencia as catalan. I will post an updated sneak peak at the end of the week with the cultures plugged in so people can see those.

 

[Duke of Bosnia]

So, what version of the game is this actually playable on?