Western Europe 1337-1469 - The Rose, the Lily, and the Oak

[Dhekelian]

I don't know if that link was somehow to prove me wrong but the first line said, An abbreviation for the English county of Oxfordshire. As someone who lives in Oxon seeing it represented by just Oxford makes no sense.
You said Oxenford is a pointless change and while I would agree as I would prefer Oxfordshire or Oxon anyway but Oxenford is better than Oxford as it includes Oxen which is close to Oxon which was my reasoning.
You said you can't rename the Earl of Oxford but what would happen if you just renamed the county Oxfordshire and kept the Earl of Oxford? It was well known that the Earl's seat was actually in Essex.
As for Elizabethean naming I would of thought the mod would be far more accurate if all changes were made to suit. The modern and some questionable county names (Exeter?) doesn't really sit well in the time frame for your mod does it?
If say the county was renamed to Oxfordshire but the major city/town was named Oxford or Oxenford how would that affect the Earl of Oxford or Earle of Oxenforde as he was known back then?

Where's Essex? I know from your point of view you want to keep the titles all neat but from the players point of view looking at the map doesn't give you a feel for the time period which is a shame because it looks so good. But again feel free to ignore my rantings as I suspect you have done already, good luck with it.

 

[Woody Man]

I don't know if that link was somehow to prove me wrong but the first line said, An abbreviation for the English county of Oxfordshire. As someone who lives in Oxon seeing it represented by just Oxford makes no sense.

Must I quote verbatim?

An abbreviation for the English county of Oxfordshire (from Oxonia, Latin for Oxford)

You said Oxenford is a pointless change and while I would agree as I would prefer Oxfordshire or Oxon anyway but Oxenford is better than Oxford as it includes Oxen which is close to Oxon which was my reasoning.

You're conflating words from two different languages to change one county name out of the whole mod, it makes no sense. Considering all other titles use modern naming conventions it would be bizarre to insist on a transitory naming convention for one title. I understand you want county names for de jure regions but that then changes the title names which would look bizarre, particularly if you choose Oxenford for the county as it was the spelling for the city and title but not the county. You're making too many leaps in logic to justify overthrowing a fairly universal naming convention in titling.

Further, you must take into account the de jure system does not so much show the names of counties but titles, and this is the way it is set up in vanilla CK2. For example, Yorkshire is the de jure duchy of York, rather than the duchy of Yorkshire. It's just the way it has been coded.

You said you can't rename the Earl of Oxford but what would happen if you just renamed the county Oxfordshire and kept the Earl of Oxford? It was well known that the Earl's seat was actually in Essex.

It's impossible unless you make all English titles titular rather than de jure, that is the only way to simulate the peerage within the bounds of the game.

As for Elizabethean naming I would of thought the mod would be far more accurate if all changes were made to suit. The modern and some questionable county names (Exeter?) doesn't really sit well in the time frame for your mod does it?
If say the county was renamed to Oxfordshire but the major city/town was named Oxford or Oxenford how would that affect the Earl of Oxford or Earle of Oxenforde as he was known back then?

He would be called Earl of Oxfordshire if the county name was change regardless of what the major city is called, that's just how Crusader Kings 2 works. Exeter is so called so that there is an Earl of Exeter, likewise Lancaster rather than Lancashire for the Earl of Lancaster.

Where's Essex? I know from your point of view you want to keep the titles all neat but from the players point of view looking at the map doesn't give you a feel for the time period which is a shame because it looks so good. But again feel free to ignore my rantings as I suspect you have done already, good luck with it.

Where it usually is, I'm not sure what your point is here? I should also note that this isn't my mod, just my period.

 

[Dhekelian]

Must I quote verbatim?

An abbreviation for the English county of Oxfordshire (from Oxonia, Latin for Oxford)

Yes I'm aware where the origins lie but a few messages ago you were doubting Oxon was used as an abbreviation for Oxfordshire which it still is today.



You're conflating words from two different languages to change one county name out of the whole mod, it makes no sense. Considering all other titles use modern naming conventions it would be bizarre to insist on a transitory naming convention for one title. I understand you want county names for de jure regions but that then changes the title names which would look bizarre, particularly if you choose Oxenford for the county as it was the spelling for the city and title but not the county. You're making too many leaps in logic to justify overthrowing a fairly universal naming convention in titling.

I would say it was the other way round no? You are using modern day language to titles and place names that would be historically very different. Other mods seem to use different spellings, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Celtic sometimes in one mod I was under the impression it was a simple task, forgive me if it isn't.




It's impossible unless you make all English titles titular rather than de jure, that is the only way to simulate the peerage within the bounds of the game.

Does CK2+ do the same then?



He would be called Earl of Oxfordshire if the county name was change regardless of what the major city is called, that's just how Crusader Kings 2 works. Exeter is so called so that there is an Earl of Exeter, likewise Lancaster rather than Lancashire for the Earl of Lancaster.

But that's where the problem lies. The earl of Exeter was just for Exeter not Devon. I see we both won't agree which is fair enough it is your mod.



Where it usually is, I'm not sure what your point is here? I should also note that this isn't my mod, just my period.

I'm sorry, the map I saw did not have Essex on it, it does now? Just your period? Mine is the Anglo-Saxon and the Elizabethean and to some extent the Napoleonic. Just playing some of the mods available with the maps in Anglo-Saxon place names gives the mod a more realistic feel to the player and thought it would be good for this mod albeit set in a slightly later period but that's fine if you like or prefer the more modern names as I said before good luck with it.

 

[mjohnson85]

Sorry I haven't been responding, have had a lot going on.

Essex most certainly has always been in the mod. The actual layout of the map is traced from multiple 15th century maps, so it is pretty accurate (talking about England). There are a few liberties I took where titles had no basis at all in land (for example; bath, rivers, bridgewater). It sounds like you are saying a lot of counties are out of place but I struggle to see any. The boundaries are really well defined historically, unlike those in continental Europe. Every Earldom that existed in the time period is on the map.

Part of the problem is that CK2, as Woody I think said, does a terrible job at representing the actual peerage system of England, which differed immensely from the feudal system of the rest of Europe. It was extremely defined compared to everywhere else.

Elizabethan naming (for anything) is out of the question because that is quite significantly after the start date (especially since I am actively working on a 14th century bookmark.

As I said before, I would like to use time period specific wording, but it would have to be universal. Meaning, if you look at documents from the period, every 50 years you see new spellings, even from different parts of the Kingdom. So the issue becomes a matter of continuity. But it has to represent the time scope of the mod as well (which means Anglo-saxon or Elizabethan is out of place).
This would honestly be a good sub-mod. If you (or anyone) wanted to compile a list of time period specific naming for titles, provinces, etc, I could easily include it as an optional sub-mod.

 

[Careful Plum]

I have noticed that spelling changes constantly throughout the time period. It is actually kind of funny because I wanted to have the time period specific spelling for everything (people names and location names) but I couldn't actually find a constant source anywhere. I assume it's because all the primary languages were still forming and each little area had its own spin on the written form.

From what I what I have seen Oxenford was what the city was known as, not the earldom.

As a little aside to the spelling thing: I work in an archive in Switzerland on 19th century documents, and while place names are fairly constant, the names of inidividual people are literally spelled differently within the same sentence. So it's more a matter of whether a concept of more-or-less standardized spelling exists, not dialects.

 

[DC123456789]

Of which I'm pretty sure there was absolutely none in that time period.

 

[Wanal]

Mine doesnt open any tips?

 

[mjohnson85]

Did you roll back your game version to pre-HL?

 

[Wanal]

nope. lol thats probably why then uh, whats the last update number ?

 

[mjohnson85]

2.3.6 I do believe.

 

[NickFeyR]

What can we expect for the next version? The new diplomacy system?

 

[mjohnson85]

Diplomacy, revamped map, culture split, events, event pictures, event/decision optimization, new coa/flags, improved localsation, bug fixes, etc

 

[Dhekelian]

I think I have solved the spelling for me at least. I never realised that you can directly rename counties in game. I just played a game and renamed counties as I went (I got a tenth century map) and all went without a hitch. Even Wessex got renamed to Hampshire as Wessex spanned a lot of shires in the South no? A bit like Mercia.


PS Could I ask if anyone knows how to rename an area of sea?

 

[mjohnson85]

Go to the localisation folder and search for the name of the sea then change that value

 

[Dhekelian]

Go to the localisation folder and search for the name of the sea then change that value

Thanks you, managed to do this as well.

 

[pyrusmole]

Was very interested in playing your mod. However, when I launch the game after selecting a character, I'm immediately confronted with an event that simply reads "A" and no option to close the event window and actually start the game. Additionally, several characters are missing portraits (including the Queen of France). Could this be caused by the DLC I have installed?


EDIT: DIsabling the WOTR portrait submod reenabled some of the portraits. However, I'm still getting the event that prevents me from playing the game.


EDIT 2: Nevermind, people. I accidentally had a AGOT submod enabled that was causing the screw up

 

[mjohnson85]

Good to hear you figured it out.

For a little update guys, I am very close to finishing the province overhaul, just part of Lotharingia left. For the first time, in a long time, I will have a full weekend to work on this mod. RL has been very time consuming since I got a promotion at work. Looking forward to finishing up some events and then getting a version out. I seem to be terrible at keeping hobby deadlines so no promises on a time table, but hopefully next week I will have a solid release going. After that it will be time to finish the map.

 

[emperorj90]

Good to hear you figured it out.

For a little update guys, I am very close to finishing the province overhaul, just part of Lotharingia left. For the first time, in a long time, I will have a full weekend to work on this mod. RL has been very time consuming since I got a promotion at work. Looking forward to finishing up some events and then getting a version out. I seem to be terrible at keeping hobby deadlines so no promises on a time table, but hopefully next week I will have a solid release going. After that it will be time to finish the map.

A busy RL is good! COngratulations for the promotion and the great mod you put together!

 

[NickFeyR]

Have you looked at the new portraits and in particular the new clothes of the Imperials of the Warhammer mod? They look stunning and they are vert appropriate for the time period of this mod. It would make your life easier with creating new portraits.

 

[mjohnson85]

I haven't taken a look at the Warhammer portraits. I really don't like using major content from other mods because it will always come with strings. I actually have a really nice set of base portraits, I just need to develop more clothes, which is the easy part.

Status update:

My computer crashed, had to reset to factory conditions. Good thing: I had a backup of all the map and portrait/history work. Bad thing: I lost my list of over 400 change log items (minor but irritating) and new event work (luckily I hadn't done too much actual coding, just a lot of theory-crafting which was backed up).

The map revamp is pretty much totally done apart from some additions to come to France.

-Italy has been revamped.

-When I originally worked on Italy I was in a major rush and had no done much work on researching county and ducal titles so I had a lot of place holders. I have now added many new county+duchy titles.
-County of Trent has been added to complete that section of Italy​

-Switzerland (the confederation) has been added. I am currently brainstorming ways to make the alliances of the confederation work. I think this is a neat little area for fun mechanics. I would love some ideas from you guys for this. Custom governments a big plus here.
-The existing portions of the HRE have been revamped and a lot of counties have been added/adjusted.
-I ended up removing navigable rivers. I thought it was a good idea to have them originally, but I feel like at this point in history it maybe wasn't such a big thing. This is an easily reversible change.
-Currently working on redoing the ocean provinces since the first set was a rush job.
-Culture mapping has been finished and I am now in the process of compiling name lists and culture bonuses for each culture.

-This includes a complete rebuilding of the culture group trees
-Unique clothing sets will be made for each culture group (most likely)​

Things I am working on:

-Making the papacy and bishops a feudal based government to make them playable
-Adding a city-state government
-Finishing the map (highest priority)
-Diplomacy system
-Events
​

Later today I will post some more information about the cultures and some screenshots of the new map.