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Western Europe 1337-1469 - The Rose, the Lily, and the Oak

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WeissRaben said:
Italy...needs some work. Is that splotch of France in the middle of Piedmont supposed to represent Asti? If so, it's big - waaaay too big. Almost all that land should be owned by the Marquis of Montferrat instead. Nice should be Savoyard, as should be...Savoy, not represented. You have a major player without its center on the map. :D
The Republic of Savona should be independent, as should Massa and Carrara. I think there's more, but will need some bookdigging to see where the situation was in 1469.
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The black spot is Saluzzo IIRC, just not added yet, neither is Savoy.

I do agree on Asti which you guessed correctly, easy fix.

Confirmed Nice issue, will change that. Piedmont will be under Savoy duchy once the top 1/2 is added. The entierty of Savoy will be in the first released version.

I haven't been able to find information on the republic of Savona and very very limited information on the Marquis of Massa. I would like to have more information on them. From what I can see from the limited information on Massa and Carrara is that they were not unified at this particular point.

One issue I have had regarding titles is that some of the viscounts, counts, and marquis held virtually no land outside of a town or 2 and the titles were often more titular than territorial. I have opted not to include these unless there was a big reason I should (mainly because there would be countless 1 province counties and duchies).

*edit* I also remember reading that Sforza controlled Genoa at this particular time period, can someone confirm?
 
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Are you adding the Colonna and the Orsini?

Would it be possible to give them a bonus to Papal election?

It'd be great to play as an actual Papal dynasty.
 
mjohnson85 said:
I haven't been able to find information on the republic of Savona and very very limited information on the Marquis of Massa. I would like to have more information on them. From what I can see from the limited information on Massa and Carrara is that they were not unified at this particular point.
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The duchy of Massa and Carrara was created in 1472 by Marquis Jacopo Malaspina. The Malaspina had been ruling Massa, and Jacopo's father Antonio Alberico Malaspina had conquered Carrara in 1428, but for around two decades it was contested between the Malaspina, the Visconti and the Campofregoso (genoese noble family). In 1473 there was a treaty between the Campofregoso and the Malaspina and the ownership of Carrara by the Malaspina was formalized and made legal.
 
As for Savona, it should be represented as an independent republic, with the Della Rovere family (later famous for creating some Popes like Julius II and Sixtus IV) as a patrician family.

Some other families which you can use for patricians in the republic of Savona: Riario, Campofregoso (a cadet branch of those in Genoa), Bartirotti, Corsi, Morra (in order of importance, I'd say).
 
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mjohnson85 said:
*edit* I also remember reading that Sforza controlled Genoa at this particular time period, can someone confirm?
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You're not mistaken.

If possible, I'd suggest putting in Genoa as a republic, but vassal of the Sforza.

One thing to notice, though, is that italian cities in that era were incredibly restless, independent minded and ready to revolt periodically. It should be incredibly hard to keep those cities under prolonged control.That's why I'd keep it as a republic vassal of the Sforza even if technically the city was ruled by a milanese governor (but still the great genoese families had a lot of power, and had obviously not stopped trading). Starting with Genoa as a feudal duchy is just a recipe for it to stay forever feudal.

Families which should have patrician status in Genoa: Doria, Cybo, Spinola, Fregoso and Adorno.
 
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Galaahd said:
Are you adding the Colonna and the Orsini?

Would it be possible to give them a bonus to Papal election?

It'd be great to play as an actual Papal dynasty.
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Yes to the first, the many Orsini castles are in the game already.

Not sure how to mod papal election bonuses - will have to look into that.

I am 100% planning on adding a lot of events for papal dynasties. I want to recreate the part the papacy played in Italian politics as it is one aspect of vanilla I always found very bland.

Galaahd said:
As for Savona, it should be represented as an independent republic, with the Della Rovere family (later famous for creating some Popes like Julius II and Sixtus IV) as a patrician family.

Some other families which you can use for patricians in the republic of Savona: Riario, Campofregoso (a cadet branch of those in Genoa), Bartirotti, Corsi, Morra (in order of importance, I'd say).
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What territory would Savona consist of?

That was indeed my plan with Genoa. To make it a vassal of Milan while retaining its republic status.

I will be doing CBs designed to increase the fighting over cities, likely based on income, resources, and population. This is certainly an aspect of Italy that I want to represent accurately.
 
mjohnson85 said:
What territory would Savona consist of?
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Just the Savona province itself, I think.

As for Liguria, give Sarzana to the Fregoso patrician family, but subject to the Republic of Genoa.

It should be noted that if you've added Finale as as a province of itself, the Marquisate of Finale should be independent (under the Del Carretto family as a landed feudal dynasty), with Albenga as a minor town in the province (but owned by Genoa).
 
Actually, if possible, could you post a zoomed in map of Italy with the provinces clearly visible?

It'd be much easier to give advices regarding the dynastical setup.
 
Here is a link to an album of Italian provinces.

Things to note:
-Flags have not been done
-This is the portion of the map I am least familiar with - I have no problem changing province names or borders.
-Part of the formula for defining provinces is that there is only 1 city per province with the rare exception (a couple provinces have 2 cities).
-All provinces have at least 2 holdings. The average holding is approximately 3.5 per province in Italy.
-215 total provinces in all of Italy

Figured I could just add the province map.

 
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Is Remigia a typo? I believe there should be Perugia there instead (under the Baglioni family back then, and independent from Spoleto).
 
Is Corse only one single province? :eek:
 
If you need a rough guideline on what family controlled what, this is a good map for reference:

Grandi_Casate_Italiane_nel_1499.png


Of course, it's from 30 years later, but I think these dynasties already ruled the respective areas (I'm sure for most of them, I will have to check a couple). The "signorie" in the Papal States were de facto independent. I think that possibly the Papal State crown authority could be set to 0 and it would be very difficult to raise.
 
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Hey, I have a few questions. Will you be including the reformation and its aftermath? How about the series of peasants' wars that were erupting over Europe at the time? I feel the mod would be missing somthing without these events. So long as the mod doesn't end before 1500
 
Galaahd said:
Is Remigia a typo? I believe there should be Perugia there instead (under the Baglioni family back then, and independent from Spoleto).
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It is possible, I have been finding and correcting a lot of initial spelling errors in province/town/holding names as I do more research.

loup99 said:
Is Corse only one single province? :eek:
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Yes, only because I only found information on a few holdings. I'm not home so I can't see how many, but when I am I will post my list to see if any are missing. Then if needed I can split it up.

Galaahd said:
If you need a rough guideline on what family controlled what, this is a good map for reference:

Of course, it's from 30 years later, but I think these dynasties already ruled the respective areas (I'm sure for most of them, I will have to check a couple). The "signorie" in the Papal States were de facto independent. I think that possibly the Papal State crown authority could be set to 0 and it would be very difficult to raise.
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Thank you for that map! I was lacking a breakdown like that, fantastic.

I have some special plans with crown authority :) For now I will just say that nobles doing their thing will be a common thing in certain areas.


1930sman said:
Hey, I have a few questions. Will you be including the reformation and its aftermath? How about the series of peasants' wars that were erupting over Europe at the time? I feel the mod would be missing somthing without these events. So long as the mod doesn't end before 1500
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Yes, I plan on doing religious reformations and large scale rebellions :happy:
 
I don't see any other issue with the map, right now. When you'll pass to the character creation phase I'd like to lend you a hand, if possible.
 
Looks great! I've been following the mod for awhile and the new provinces look good (but I'm not province historian). I'm willing to dedicate time to help with character creation to help speed the mod along.
 
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