Western Europe 1337-1469 - The Rose, the Lily, and the Oak

[Aerkhanite]

Because it is my favorite time period and I am making this for me It also happens to have a lot of VERY important things happening that shaped the future of Europe all over this map.

Well, can't argue with that.
Good luck lad.

By the way, if you need anything about Netherlands/Belgium, I'd be your man. I could translate or whatever you need.

 

[Andrelvis]

Getting there!

That's an amazing amount of detail for the province map Did you have to increase the map's pixel size for that?

 

[Pheonix330]

Will greece be included?

 

[mjohnson85]

Can you talk about these unique HRE mechanics a bit more? For example, did you use the Golden Bull to code the elections? Do you also have a fixed 7 electoral titles?

And another question, relating to a different topic though: During this time period, many of Europe's traditional universities were founded. Will this be represented in the mod by more than simply the university building? If yes, how?

- It is still a WIP so I don't want to go into specifics yet. With that being said I did use the golden bull as a basis for the elections and I am (for the time being) fixing it at 7 electors.

- I've been recording all the universities that were up and running so those will all be plugged in at the start. My plan with universities is mainly to add flavor via events if they exist (using them as spring boards for reform, heresies, etc). My goal is to keep universities fairly special so not every province will be able to build them. I will probably also use events to spur the building of them but I haven't gotten to those details yet.

DId you consider expanding map to the east, so all of Poland and Hungary could be included?

- I have considered this. I actually have a really good idea of what my end game is with the map (finish Poland, finish Hungary, Greece, Ottomans, North Africa). The issue is going to be what I can get away with performance wise. This map is absolutely huge so I am not even really going to think about adding anything to it until I have a polished version of the current map and can see the big picture at that point.

That's an amazing amount of detail for the province map Did you have to increase the map's pixel size for that?

- It is a very big map pixel wise when compared to vanilla.

Will greece be included?

- Not in the initial release, maybe in the future.

 

[NickFeyR]

I think you hould leave out Greece and the Ottomans IMO. This mod is not called Western Europe for nothing, I think even adding North Africa is stretching it.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Well, the Ottomans and Greece are essential to Hungary and Spain (and Venice, and Naples... Aragon ruled over Athens in the 1300s, and Venice and Naples both played power broker in southern Greece and ), and their constant assaults on Eastern Europe drove many "centralizing" reforms as a defense mechanism. For that matter without the Ottomans the Hungarians would be a great power all on their own and a major pressure on the Empire's eastern flank- quite possibly unifying Bohemia and Austria to them by force even! The initial release can do without them, certainly, but as the map is fortuitously designed to be easily expanded once Hungary and Poland are added the Turks are the logical next step.

The East was (with the exception of Persia) generally much more unified than the west, so provinces could be smaller. For that matter Persia in this period was a very "interesting" free for all in the wake of the Ilkhanate (and Timurid) collapses.

 

[NickFeyR]

Well, the Ottomans and Greece are essential to Hungary and Spain (and Venice, and Naples... Aragon ruled over Athens in the 1300s, and Venice and Naples both played power broker in southern Greece and ), and their constant assaults on Eastern Europe drove many "centralizing" reforms as a defense mechanism. For that matter without the Ottomans the Hungarians would be a great power all on their own and a major pressure on the Empire's eastern flank- quite possibly unifying Bohemia and Austria to them by force even! The initial release can do without them, certainly, but as the map is fortuitously designed to be easily expanded once Hungary and Poland are added the Turks are the logical next step.

The East was (with the exception of Persia) generally much more unified than the west, so provinces could be smaller. For that matter Persia in this period was a very "interesting" free for all in the wake of the Ilkhanate (and Timurid) collapses.

Disagree to be honest. Greece and the Ottomans won't add anything that the current map can provide.

 

[Andrelvis]

- I've been recording all the universities that were up and running so those will all be plugged in at the start.

I have quite a bit of data in that regard, if that would be useful.

One good source for historical university foundations is this map from William R. Shepherd's Historical Atlas:

I completely agree that universities should be more special. It might even make sense to give each university their own holding (making them "city" holdings with a special title_prefix, and giving them a special title so that they can build intra-university "buildings").

- It is a very big map pixel wise when compared to vanilla.

Cool

 

[mjohnson85]

I think you hould leave out Greece and the Ottomans IMO. This mod is not called Western Europe for nothing, I think even adding North Africa is stretching it.

Well, the Ottomans and Greece are essential to Hungary and Spain (and Venice, and Naples... Aragon ruled over Athens in the 1300s, and Venice and Naples both played power broker in southern Greece and ), and their constant assaults on Eastern Europe drove many "centralizing" reforms as a defense mechanism. For that matter without the Ottomans the Hungarians would be a great power all on their own and a major pressure on the Empire's eastern flank- quite possibly unifying Bohemia and Austria to them by force even! The initial release can do without them, certainly, but as the map is fortuitously designed to be easily expanded once Hungary and Poland are added the Turks are the logical next step.

The East was (with the exception of Persia) generally much more unified than the west, so provinces could be smaller. For that matter Persia in this period was a very "interesting" free for all in the wake of the Ilkhanate (and Timurid) collapses.

I agree with Undead Martyr here. I have just read so much history and the Ottomans were a huge influence all over the map. While they did not invade France for example, the results of their eastern invasions had massive consequences on Western Europe. I will upload an image later tonight to show exactly what areas I want to do. But again, I will not be adding anything else at this point. For now we can pretend that the second 1/2 of Hungary is dealing with the turks.

And with Greece, he is also right. The Italians and Aragon were in heavy competition so it all makes sense. Hopefully the picture I will later upload clarifies my ultimate goal.

As a side note - one of the really cool things with this particular start date is that Ladislaus von Habsburg holds the Hungarian, Croatian, and Bohemian crowns as well as the Archduchy of Austria. While he is a minor still, imagine if he overcomes the internal resistance of those realms and doesn't die young as he did historically....Fun times!

I have quite a bit of data in that regard, if that would be useful.

One good source for historical university foundations is this map from William R. Shepherd's Historical Atlas:

I completely agree that universities should be more special. It might even make sense to give each university their own holding (making them "city" holdings with a special title_prefix, and giving them a special title so that they can build intra-university "buildings").



Cool

Awesome map, Thanks!

Interesting idea for universities, the downside would be that I have so many provinces. If i add extra holdings the # of characters will go up drastically. I have 2073 land provinces right now and 4 holdings per province. If I did that it would make it that much more difficult to add other areas to the map. IIRC adding North Africa is going to be about 300 provinces (I already have it mapped out) which would already be an increase of 1200 holdings so I have to pick my battles. Maybe something I will revisit once the map is completely done way down the road.

 

[Andrelvis]

Awesome map, Thanks!

Interesting idea for universities, the downside would be that I have so many provinces. If i add extra holdings the # of characters will go up drastically. I have 2073 land provinces right now and 4 holdings per province. If I did that it would make it that much more difficult to add other areas to the map. IIRC adding North Africa is going to be about 300 provinces (I already have it mapped out) which would already be an increase of 1200 holdings so I have to pick my battles. Maybe something I will revisit once the map is completely done way down the road.

Quite true, giving universities their own holding probably isn't worth it, performance-wise.

On the subject of optimization, there might be some events from vanilla which use MTTH that could be moved to on-actions. That might give you some greater leeway to increase the playable areas.

 

[Undead Martyr]

There are a lot of fun dynastic PoDs in this period. For example the Habsburgs came perilously close to going extinct in the 15th century- it was down to Maximillian and his son (the OTL husband of Mary of Burgundy) essentially- this was a big part of why the Habsburgs were so powerful, as this single inheritance allowed them to consolidate rather than get divvyed up like Wittlesbach Bavaria or Wettin Saxony.

Another PoD is if Rene of Anjou had been more successful. The man tried to claim both Naples and Aragon, as well as possessing a tenuous claim on Hungary.
Yet another PoD is the Luxemborgs surviving. An early Bohemia-Hungary-HRE giant would have interesting ramifications for the Balkans among others. And of course the whole Iberian mes could have turned out differently- "Spain" could well have been a union of Castille and Portugal!
There's also Louis the Great, king of Hungary, Poland and Naples.

 

[mjohnson85]

There are a lot of fun dynastic PoDs in this period. For example the Habsburgs came perilously close to going extinct in the 15th century- it was down to Maximillian and his son (the OTL husband of Mary of Burgundy) essentially- this was a big part of why the Habsburgs were so powerful, as this single inheritance allowed them to consolidate rather than get divvyed up like Wittlesbach Bavaria or Wettin Saxony.

Another PoD is if Rene of Anjou had been more successful. The man tried to claim both Naples and Aragon, as well as possessing a tenuous claim on Hungary.
Yet another PoD is the Luxemborgs surviving. An early Bohemia-Hungary-HRE giant would have interesting ramifications for the Balkans among others. And of course the whole Iberian mes could have turned out differently- "Spain" could well have been a union of Castille and Portugal!
There's also Louis the Great, king of Hungary, Poland and Naples.

Exactly, this is such a defining point in history. The world changing scenario list goes on and on.

 

[Pirisinian]

This period is also interesting for England as its population was beginning to recover from the Black Death, which led to rising food prices and lower purchasing power for the average wage, which naturally led to increasing unrest. Obviously ck2 is rather limited (rather shortsightedly I feel like) in how it represents economic changes and their ramifications, but it's difficult to ignore as a factor.

On a slightly related note, are wars expensive as hell?

 

[mjohnson85]

This period is also interesting for England as its population was beginning to recover from the Black Death, which led to rising food prices and lower purchasing power for the average wage, which naturally led to increasing unrest. Obviously ck2 is rather limited (rather shortsightedly I feel like) in how it represents economic changes and their ramifications, but it's difficult to ignore as a factor.

On a slightly related note, are wars expensive as hell?

Yes, I actually added historical (as accurate as I could find) wages for soldiers based on their type. Wars are expensive and punishing in more ways than one. I have also added a significant amount of AI logic to war declarations so they are much better at picking good targets (high pop cities, high value resources for conquest for example).

 

[TheNully]

I have zero doubt in my mind that this is going to be one of the greatest mods in CK history, in my opinion, only on par with the Game of Thrones main mod.

Hope we get some release date hints soon though, I cant wait to lose many hours of my leisure time to this!

Thanks mjohnson!

 

[Joel M Bridge]

How much will papacy crowning The emperor matter?

 

[mjohnson85]

How much will papacy crowning The emperor matter?

I will handle with some flavor events but other than that, no.

Please, allow me to point you to your Google document, I posted some questions around line 1840 and then 1970. Thanks in advance.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[Duke of Bosnia]

Doing Bosnia aswel? :O Nice, please add Bosnian culture <3

 

[Pheonix330]

I don't think that Bosnian culture really existed back then.

 

[Moarice]

I don't think that Bosnian culture really existed back then.

Makes more sense than separate Slavic cultures in the vanilla Charlemagne start.