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hothmir

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Now that cavalry's speed has been reduced to that of the infantry, is there any point to keeping the stuff around after reaching Tech 5 as a western tech country? It lower shock and morale values, cost more to maintain and doesn't even get the nominal fire that the infantry now receives. Let's turn the horses out to stud and wait for artillery to show up.
 

Grubnessul

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Yes, it's still very useful for killing and flanking.
 

Palle

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There's more to units than just shock and morale points. There's a page in the ledger that lists unit modifiers that change with tech. Cavalry has much better shock modifiers than infantry in the game. Also cavalry units can attack further than infantry in the combat screen.
 

iron0037

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The multipliers are confusing to people because they're hidden unless you go searching for them. It took me a decent amount of playing before I realized that Cavalry are worthless for Fire phase because the multiplier never gets above 0.1. Conversely, it's not self evident looking at an infantry and cavalry unit each with Shock of 1 at Tech Level 5 that the Cavalry does more than double the damage.

Though it will never be implemented, I wish all multipliers started at 1 and increased from there. I wish that you got notification when your Land tech level increases that the multiplier went up.

Only vaguely related...it would be cool if units had slight speed modifiers as well. Lighter infantry and artillery move more quickly...
 

Grubnessul

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in HTTT the modifiers are clear in the military screen.
 

JimboOmega

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Now that cavalry's speed has been reduced to that of the infantry, is there any point to keeping the stuff around after reaching Tech 5 as a western tech country? It lower shock and morale values, cost more to maintain and doesn't even get the nominal fire that the infantry now receives. Let's turn the horses out to stud and wait for artillery to show up.

I thought that cavalry still gets multipliers to shock making it stronger than infantry? It's still more force limit efficient than infantry, right?
 

GAGA Extrem

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Now that cavalry's speed has been reduced to that of the infantry, is there any point to keeping the stuff around after reaching Tech 5 as a western tech country? It lower shock and morale values, cost more to maintain and doesn't even get the nominal fire that the infantry now receives. Let's turn the horses out to stud and wait for artillery to show up.
CAV dominates the battlefield for at least 100 years into the game. Once Landsknecht INF comes available (around LT 12), pure CAV won't be as useful but still stay strong.

It is a common mistake for beginners (no offense, well all started playing this game some day) to overestimate unit models. The few points from a unit model are mostly equal to a minor modifier for your dice roll. What really counts is the damage modifier. CAV has a 2-4 times higher shock modifier than INF. Due to the higher damage modifier, CAV benefits a lot more from good (shock) generals than INF.

What does this mean?
Well, in short 1 CAV deals roughly as much losses as 2 INF. Now the problem is: You can only fight with [smallest number of regiments on any side +4] regiments at the same time.
So imagine a combat with 10 CAV vs 20 INF.
12 INF will be placed on the frontline, 8 INF will stay in reserve and - do nothing until the frontline INF is mobbed up. So even IF you win a battle (you would need dice luck for that in 1450) by using pure INF, you will still suffer higher losses than the enemy CAV. The result of such a battle will usually be ~4000 dead CAV and ~10 dead INF.

CAV gives you more combat power during the early game per manpower. It gives you more combat power per frontage during combat. Until LT 13, there are three reasons to choose INF over CAV:
1) You want to storm forts.
2) You are so poor that you cannot afford CAV.
3) You fight offensively in difficult terrain (hills & mountains).
 

Grubnessul

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I thought that cavalry still gets multipliers to shock making it stronger than infantry? It's still more force limit efficient than infantry, right?

Well, that would depend on how you define force limit efficient. As far as I understand the HTTT changes, a mixed army will pretty much always beat a pure cav army of approximately the same size.
 

JimboOmega

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Well, that would depend on how you define force limit efficient. As far as I understand the HTTT changes, a mixed army will pretty much always beat a pure cav army of approximately the same size.

Force limit efficient in my mind means: your force limit is X regiments, what is the most powerful army you can make out of this many regiments?

Edit: This in contrast to financially efficient, which is to say, you have X ducats to spend on military maintenance, what is the best army you can build?

Anyway, I thought the mixed army tactics bonus (combined arms bonus?) was 10%? Which is far outweighed by the multipliers.
 
Last edited:

Grubnessul

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It'll depend on what age you are in, at the start all cav may still work, however, when gunpowder units become available, infantry and artillery will be much more powerful than before.
 

King Nothing

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But since morale is the most important number now in HttT and not shock anymore, inf have become the best choice a lot earlier. My guess it could be a close call as early as for men at arms.. And after inf have taken the lead, cavalry is pretty much useless except for 2 regiments for flanking..

But there is a much more detailed discussion of this just a couple of threads away. The "which unit is best in which terrain" thread (or something like that) has come further. :)
 

unmerged(106498)

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I'm running 2 cav to 3 inf ratio, scaled up by groups of 5. This gives me a good balance for fighting and storming. Pure cav so far does do better than a 50/50 split in terms of casualties delt and battles won. However! once you get into higher tech, the slow cav does significantly reduce it's value strategically.
 

luitzen

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CAV dominates the battlefield for at least 100 years into the game. Once Landsknecht INF comes available (around LT 12), pure CAV won't be as useful but still stay strong.

It is a common mistake for beginners (no offense, well all started playing this game some day) to overestimate unit models. The few points from a unit model are mostly equal to a minor modifier for your dice roll. What really counts is the damage modifier. CAV has a 2-4 times higher shock modifier than INF. Due to the higher damage modifier, CAV benefits a lot more from good (shock) generals than INF.

What does this mean?
Well, in short 1 CAV deals roughly as much losses as 2 INF. Now the problem is: You can only fight with [smallest number of regiments on any side +4] regiments at the same time.
So imagine a combat with 10 CAV vs 20 INF.
12 INF will be placed on the frontline, 8 INF will stay in reserve and - do nothing until the frontline INF is mobbed up. So even IF you win a battle (you would need dice luck for that in 1450) by using pure INF, you will still suffer higher losses than the enemy CAV. The result of such a battle will usually be ~4000 dead CAV and ~10 dead INF.

CAV gives you more combat power during the early game per manpower. It gives you more combat power per frontage during combat. Until LT 13, there are three reasons to choose INF over CAV:
1) You want to storm forts.
2) You are so poor that you cannot afford CAV.
3) You fight offensively in difficult terrain (hills & mountains).
Is there a manual on combat available and, if no, would you mind writing one? What I usually do is use all cavalry stacks of 12k until as late as 1550, sometimes combining multiple stacks against strong opponents. I almost always use 12k stacks because they won't suffer any attrition in almost any friendly province.
 

unmerged(173517)

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it's pretty stupid that cavalry and infantry have the same speed of movement now. how does that make sense?? imagine my surprise when i sent my cavalry to the province my opponents were running off to so i can annihilate them when they arrive and my cavalry got there a day later(!!!!) than their infantry. that is sooo stupid. the enemy was running away cuz they lost the first battle, and yet the 2nd battle the enemy managed to win!!! stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

so how am i supposed to keep a tight grip on my provinces now? just to get from sicily to the closest italian mainland province now with cavalry takes 25 days!!! so if i had an army in the north of italy and a rebellion in the south i couldnt even get there in time to clean house. does anyone know how i can mod the cavalry speed cuz im not putting up with this bullshit. what the hell am i supposed to do for 25 days while my armies are moving 1 fucking province, and then they win a battle and then they gotta go to the next province to LOSE a battle. stupid stupid stupid
 

ZechsMerquise73

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it's pretty stupid that cavalry and infantry have the same speed of movement now. how does that make sense?? imagine my surprise when i sent my cavalry to the province my opponents were running off to so i can annihilate them when they arrive and my cavalry got there a day later(!!!!) than their infantry. that is sooo stupid. the enemy was running away cuz they lost the first battle, and yet the 2nd battle the enemy managed to win!!! stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

so how am i supposed to keep a tight grip on my provinces now? just to get from sicily to the closest italian mainland province now with cavalry takes 25 days!!! so if i had an army in the north of italy and a rebellion in the south i couldnt even get there in time to clean house. does anyone know how i can mod the cavalry speed cuz im not putting up with this bullshit. what the hell am i supposed to do for 25 days while my armies are moving 1 fucking province, and then they win a battle and then they gotta go to the next province to LOSE a battle. stupid stupid stupid

I think what the devs have in mind by moving a force is basic troop movement. Routing and cleanup should move at a very different speed. Routing troops and pursuers aren't going to tip-toe to the next province then duke it out again.

What this needs is for troops to get pursuer-router buffs after combat. Ones that don't go away when miss-clicking.

Paradox, why get so choked up about unit type balancing in a game where you can unify Europe in two clicks? (HRE formation)
 

Profane

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Apr 30, 2006
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it's pretty stupid that cavalry and infantry have the same speed of movement now. how does that make sense?? imagine my surprise when i sent my cavalry to the province my opponents were running off to so i can annihilate them when they arrive and my cavalry got there a day later(!!!!) than their infantry. that is sooo stupid. the enemy was running away cuz they lost the first battle, and yet the 2nd battle the enemy managed to win!!! stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

So you consider it normal for 2 armies to fight then the winner teleports right through the losers army and waits for him in the next province, maybe in the era of blitzkrieg and panzers it was possible to punch through the enemy lines but this isn't hoi. Or maybe they use the same road together looser on the left lane and winner on right lane and wave at each other.

And oh gosh loosing a fight then winning the next oh my thats soooo stupid, i guess.