West Rome and Latin Empire (Edit: and other formable ideas)

[Eliseon]

I was thinking about these formables. The way i see it is as a formable for western nations like Castile, Aragon and France etc, to "trully become" Rome by restoring the west. Also a counter balance to East Rome that Byzantium is. You can say Byz IS the Roman Empire, which is correct but it was left as such by default when the West died. I dotn ask for historical accuracy, just some flavor that could make the game more fan. It always felt weird that you have to form Roman Empire immediatelly, when Byzantium is already there or going from zero to hero just to form it. West Rome would be a nice middle step formable towards forming Roman Empire. You could even add crazy flavor to it or missions to restore paganism or anything else. Also we could have two new achievements related to it 1) Restrore West Rome (similar to Basileus one for restoring the lands of the East Rome), 2) The Two Romes (have byzantium and west rome exist at the same time or go even further with this requiring them to own all the lands of their fullest extent). Byzantium could even get special flavor for restoring the Western part indirectly through a vassal and with some missions accompanying it. It is bad enough you dont have Latin Empire for western powers to form in Balkans, it is even worse to not have West Rome.
As for Latin Empire i understand the reason the dev team hadn't added it (from the few things i have been told) but lets be realistic. If you have an empire called Byzantium, you can definitely have an other one called Latin Empire. This formable could be ether a Crusader specific tag or a western european tag in general if you own south balkans. But in return western powers they shouldnt be able to form Byzantium (its weird enough they can form it by switching to greek and orthodox now... at least Latin Empire has a historical bases for forming it).

thnx for your time boys

EDIT: upon the topic of formables we could also have Greater Moravia (a shame we dont have it. playing for the achievement left me kinda sour i couldnt form greater moravia as a nation), Crusader States of Antioch, Edessa and Tripoli, the Kingdom of the Franks, the Seljuks (if it isnt related to Rum) and various caliphates that existed in north africa and arabia (the Caliphate name change feels kinda out of place since many different ones existed through time).

 

[I Couldn't Decide]

West Rome is a little silly (though requiring players to conquer just about every land the Romans historically conquered is also silly): don't forget that the HRE was meant to be the Roman Empire (called the Holy Roman Empire and the emperor was crowned by the pope).

The Latin Empire already exists, though only as a name-change (a la the Caliphate). That is enough, though it might be neat to be able to form a new nation as Epirus (for example).

Greater Moravia

This was simply the greatest extent of the Moravian state, so it makes about as much sense as a unique formable for France when it makes it to a certain size.

Crusader States of Antioch, Edessa and Tripoli

Releasable? Yes. Formable? No.

Kingdom of the Franks

That would be France.

the Seljuks and various caliphates

Sure. The Caliphate name-change should change the country's name to that of the ruling dynasty (except for the Mamluks).

But I like the idea of more formable nations; I would like a England-France formable (that's not the Angevin Empire - I find that name very cliched), more post-colonial formables (Columbia, Dominica, Ecuador, and Uruguay, for example), and Yugoslavia (yeah yeah, I know).

 

[Eliseon]

The state on which Moravia and Nitra exist, dont represent Great Moravia as it was. They are just leftover states under certain powers.
The Crusader States i suggested should be formable the same way Jerusalem is. Jerusalem isnt releasable, i dont see why the others should be.
Latin Empire doesnt exist and i dont know which tag are you reffering to. Latin Empire was the state that controled Constantinople after the first fall of Constantinople by the crusaders.
Kingdom of the Franks isnt France... The Kingdom controled all or most of west and central Europe and France in a sense is a sucessor state in the far future after the breakdown of the kingdom of Franks in 3 states. The idea is that it restores the Kingdom back to glory.

As for HRE... no they werent Rome so they dont fit the bill

 

[I Couldn't Decide]

The state on which Moravia and Nitra exist, dont represent Great Moravia as it was.

Fair point, but I still think that's a bit unnecessary.

The Crusader States i suggested should be formable the same way Jerusalem is. Jerusalem isnt releasable, i dont see why the others should be.

I meant like "releasable in a mission," rather than "has tags in 1444." As for Jerusalem, I'd argue that it's a little different - mainly in its importance. Should Epirus be reformable?

Latin Empire doesnt exist and i dont know which tag are you reffering to.

There are two ways to get it: As Poland, and as any crusader state (The Crusader event "The Latin Empire" now overrides your name with the Latin Empire name.)

Kingdom of the Franks isnt France

It is. Francia became France. It's not a successor state, it's the remnants of the earlier empire (which was the first HRE, in fact). Again, a bit unnecessary.

As for HRE... no they werent Rome

Neither was the Sultanate of Rum or the Ottoman Empire, and yet they both claimed the title. And so did the HRE; and it had the pope on its side, so while it definitely wasn't Rome, most Catholics definitely considered it to be.

 

[Eliseon]

Hadn't seen that one about Latin Empire. A fine addition to the game!

 

[Flammifleure]

@Eliseon I also think forming "Western Rome" is both rather unnecessary and ahistorical. The HRE was the western Empire in the eyes of its contemporaries. I don't know what you mean "they don't fit the bill;" they controlled Rome (nominally, at least; the Pope saw himself as spiritual and arguably the true temporal head of the Empire); they were consecrated by the pontifex maximus of the Roman state religion; and they were (probably) recognised as such by the Byzantines.

However I think forming the Latin Empire would be reasonable for a Catholic nation in the Balkans or Analtolia, or maybe even one that manages to capture Constantinople without owning Rome (as Venice or Naples might do). As far as I can tell from the wiki, there's a mission called "The Latin Empire" but it doesn't result in a name or tag change. Whether the Latin Empire would have new ideas or inherit the old ideas of the forming state, I'm not sure.

Great Moravia -- I see I Couldn't Decide's point, that it's effectively just Moravia with bigger borders; but I feel like it could be a formable for west Slavs to aim for who don't want to be the PLC or HRE-centric Bohemia. In other words, Nitrans/Slovaks, Moravians, Silesians and maybe Czechs and Lausatians.

I think that Tripoli, Antioch and Edessa ought to be, from the game's point of view, just part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem's borders. They were fiefs of Jerusalem, however independent, and with the whole thing a rather distant memory I don't think anybody would want to reform them, any more than someone would invade England with the aim of reviving Mercia.

Releasing even Jerusalem is kind of problematic. Realistically, a European nation wouldn't want to directly rule over Outremer, and wouldn't really be able to if it did. So it makes sense to have Jerusalem as a vassal. But the current release mechanic revolves around the idea of an old polity regaining independence/sufficient autonomy to be at least a vassal. The Crusder State never put down the kind of roots that would be represented by cores. Still, I suppose the other factors I mentioned could justify giving it cores, which would just expire in time if no Christian successfully liberates the lands from the Mamluks (or Ottomans).

The Kingdom of the Franks is France, yes. France very much saw itself as that and did its best to "reclaim" the full extent of its old old territory. The Empire of the Franks is another matter. I'd say that the Frankish Empire became synonymous with the HRE -- and France both tried historically and can try in-game to become the HREmperor. However, one could also identify the Frankish Empire with France, which is seemingly the angle Napoleon took -- his Empire of the French took precedence over and saw the abolition of the Empire of the Romans, and certainly contained more territory than Charlemagne's empire.

And I also don't see why the Caliphates, specifically, would be reformable, because the Caliphate represented the demesne of a specific dynastic family. You can't restore the Ayyubid Caliphate unless you can produce an Ayyub to rule it. And besides, EUIV is supposed to represent a movement towards states and nations independent of dynaties, even in the case of monarchies -- England remains England whether it is ruled by Plantagenets, Tudors, Stuarts or Hanovers. France is France, no longer the personal demesne of the Valois or Capetians.

Now one could argue that the Moslem world ought to be handled differently, and I don't know enough to have a grounded opinion. But for now the game's system seems legit to me -- countries are identified by national rather than dynastic tags, and the formation of the Caliphate represents something similar to the reformation of Rome -- a reunion of all, or almost all, Muslims under a single state as in the old days.

Edit:
@I Couldn't Decide

I don't see an England-France formable; the closest the two countries came to being united was during the 100 Years' War and that would be represented in-game by a personal union.

I would suggest Illyria instead of Yugoslavia. An old thread made a really good case for it; apparently some intellectuals were actually pushing for such during the game's time frame.

The formables I most want are Belgium (for Francophone Low Countries, Flanders and maybe Luxembourg) and a Celtic alternative to Great Britain -- tentatively Albion, but there might be a better name.

There are two ways to get it: As Poland, and as any crusader state (The Crusader event "The Latin Empire" now overrides your name with the Latin Empire name.)

This was posted while I was still writing my post. I was going by the wiki, which I guess hasn't been updated to reflect this.

 

[Eliseon]

The problem with HRE is this. They recognised themselves as Romans but lets be honest, they didnt have any legitimacy to it. Rome was famous for her hatred towards Germans specifically and they even excluded them from Constitutio Antoniana. The idea of West Rome formable is to breach that illegitimacy and give any western country to claim a legitimate roman inheritance/tradition/claim. The idea would play out like this:

2 events that could start depending if Byzantium is alive or not: 1A) (By holding much of Italy and Rome under any westerner and having good relations with Byz) "The Regalia of Western Rome": The Roman Emperor of the East had sent in the past the regalia of the west to Odoacre of the Ostrogoths to succeed in the west as roman emperor but he refused. He sent the Imperial Regalia back and the west lost the chance to claim any true inheritance forever. Now, the Emperor of the Romans recognised our worth and give as a last chance to claim the glory of the West and form it. Will we accept it or we will decline like fools?
1B) (If Byzantium doesnt exist and have the same holdings as before) "Byzantine Refugees bring a special gift": The Roman Empire has fallen in the East and the Ottomans endager Europe and Christianity as a whole. The last royal members of the Palaiologian family brought with them the imperial regalia of the West as memento of their lost empire. In their bad state they decided to sell them for the highest price. This is our chance to claim a true Roman Legacy"
Both events would give you ether a modifier (that would eventually lead to formation) or they would allow you to form West Rome. Then you could have other events related to your religion (keep Catholic/ change to the religion of your eastern partner aka orthodoxy/ return to paganism trying to immitate the legacy of Rome. In a third event you could possibly have to deal diplomatically with Pope and other western nations depending on the religion choice. If said event fired during reformation, denouncing the Pope and becoming orthodox/pagan etc could give you good relations with protestants but bad with catholics etc.
The formable could have similar missions to Byz for direct expansion westwards (instead of the eastwards expansion of Byz)
A Western Rome formable has such great potential and i would love to hear more ideas and flavor for it.

As for the rest i think i am gonna agree with the Caliphate point as well. It was too dynastic focused but that could allow us to suggest a dynamic caliphate formable that changes the name of the caliphate depending on your current dynasty. That just as an idea for thought.

The Great Moravia one is more in line with the rule of "Cool" and with the sense of accomplishment it brings. When i took the achievement with Nitra i felt hollow tbh. There was no visual representation of my accomplishment. if the formable existed it would give a feel of coolness and glory and make you strive to go even bigger than before.

As for kingdom of Frankia i ment Frankish Empire indeed. I think at this timeline 1444+, the Frankish Empire has the feels of Roman Empire imo. We could have it as a tag for French and Germans or as a name change thing.

Also the last part about Palaiologians selling the regalia could fit the historical facts about them selling the title of roman emperor to western rulers but with no response (after the fall of 1453).

 

[Flammifleure]

The problem with HRE is this. They recognised themselves as Romans but lets be honest, they didnt have any legitimacy to it. Rome was famous for her hatred towards Germans specifically and they even excluded them from Constitutio Antoniana. The idea of West Rome formable is to breach that illegitimacy and give any western country to claim a legitimate roman inheritance/tradition/claim.

If that were the case, nobody could be legitimate, because all of Western Europe was ruled by Germans -- even most of Italy, with Lombards and Goths in the north and Normans in the south. But the point is that this is a projection of modern sentiment into history -- at the time everyone accepted that the HRE was exactly what it claimed to be -- the Roman Empire, with the added "Holy" because it was "Christian" (as opposed to pagan or heretic) and its monarchs consecrated by the Pope. It only came to be associated with Germany rather later, as its control over non-German regions faded and nationalism began to emerge.

The idea would play out like this:

2 events that could start depending if Byzantium is alive or not: 1A) (By holding much of Italy and Rome under any westerner and having good relations with Byz) "The Regalia of Western Rome": The Roman Emperor of the East had sent in the past the regalia of the west to Odoacre of the Ostrogoths to succeed in the west as roman emperor but he refused. He sent the Imperial Regalia back and the west lost the chance to claim any true inheritance forever. Now, the Emperor of the Romans recognised our worth and give as a last chance to claim the glory of the West and form it. Will we accept it or we will decline like fools?
1B) (If Byzantium doesnt exist and have the same holdings as before) "Byzantine Refugees bring a special gift": The Roman Empire has fallen in the East and the Ottomans endager Europe and Christianity as a whole. The last royal members of the Palaiologian family brought with them the imperial regalia of the West as memento of their lost empire. In their bad state they decided to sell them for the highest price. This is our chance to claim a true Roman Legacy"
Both events would give you ether a modifier (that would eventually lead to formation) or they would allow you to form West Rome. Then you could have other events related to your religion (keep Catholic/ change to the religion of your eastern partner aka orthodoxy/ return to paganism trying to immitate the legacy of Rome. In a third event you could possibly have to deal diplomatically with Pope and other western nations depending on the religion choice. If said event fired during reformation, denouncing the Pope and becoming orthodox/pagan etc could give you good relations with protestants but bad with catholics etc.

That makes no sense. Legitimacy for Western rulers, the Emperor especially, came from recognition by the Pope. Especially given the lack of power of Byzantium, I don't think anybody in Catholic Europe would give a darn what they did or didn't do -- though of course Byzantium probably wouldn't survive long enough for even a skillful player to form Rome. But while the West may have recognised the political legitimacy of Byzantium, they were heretics and that counted for a lot back then. Though ironically the person most concerned with the fate of Byzantium was the Pope himself; he tried to rouse a last-ditch effort to save them, but couldn't garner enough support before Morea fell.

(Honestly the "tolerated heretics" thing that the game has going on between Orthodox and Catholic is probably anachronistic; the two groups hated each other about as much as Protestants and Catholics, and persecution was the order of the day when one governed the other, as happened in Eastern Europe).

And again, the HRE was the Roman Empire they knew. Even for Protestants, becoming Roman Emperor would mean winning the favour of the Electors.

The third option is of course to just conquer enough land to compel people to recognise your claim, and hold it long enough to obtain legitimacy by "squatter's rights", a fait accompli. That's what the game currently represents.

Further problems with your suggestion is that regalia doesn't confer legitimacy. Every new monarch manufactured their own regalia, little to no importance was attached to historical artifacts. Even more practical is that the regalia sent by Odoacer to Zeno no longer existed. The Fourth Crusaders destroyed all the crowns housed in Constantinople when they captured it; so it would have perished then if it even survived that long.

The formable could have similar missions to Byz for direct expansion westwards (instead of the eastwards expansion of Byz)
A Western Rome formable has such great potential and i would love to hear more ideas and flavor for it.

I do intend to make a series about different ways of reforming Rome, with different paths for the Papacy, western nations, Byzantium, and the Turks. I don't see the need for "Western Roman Empire," but I do think that the Roman Empire tag should be frmable much earlier.

The Great Moravia one is more in line with the rule of "Cool" and with the sense of accomplishment it brings. When i took the achievement with Nitra i felt hollow tbh. There was no visual representation of my accomplishment. if the formable existed it would give a feel of coolness and glory and make you strive to go even bigger than before.

I think it actually makes sense beyond it being cool. As a said, it's a union tag for west Slavs, and I certainly think that if Moravia or Nitra had gained independence it would a dream their rulers would reasonably shoot for, and certainly use to justify expansion.

As for kingdom of Frankia i ment Frankish Empire indeed. I think at this timeline 1444+, the Frankish Empire has the feels of Roman Empire imo. We could have it as a tag for French and Germans or as a name change thing.

No, for reasons stated.

Also the last part about Palaiologians selling the regalia could fit the historical facts about them selling the title of roman emperor to western rulers but with no response (after the fall of 1453).

That could actually be an interesting event in itself -- a powerful Western nation is approached by the last Byzantine Emperor, and you have a choice between paying money for temporary claims to the Eastern Empire (if you think you can take on the Ottomans) or decline at no penalty.

 

[Eliseon]

You are kinda right but lets be honest... with Lions of the North we even have alternative tags and nations that shouldnt exist like Crusading Hordes and a really early prussia/scandinavia etc. We can serve the rule of cool even if things dont seem to be that important or have much sense. In my book any addition is special and fan to engage. All of those tags would add more flavor to the game and make it even more fan. Especially now that the game comes close to an end with all the rumors about eu5 we can definitely go out of the way and ask things like that to be added. Its not like additions like this will break the balance or leave a bad taste to the mouths of players. If anything it will do the opposite. Why leave a chance to bring forth much of the past and manifest it into the present and future with a game like eu4. You can make the arguement you can do that with mods, but it is a different thing when you accomplish those in the base game.



EDIT: Ok now i am hyped up! Listen up PEOPLE! THIS IS OUR MOMENT TO SHINE! LETS GATHER ALL HERE, ON THIS SINGLE COMMENT SECTION AND UNITE OUR MINDS TO BRING FORTH FORMABLES THAT COULD EXIST IN GAME! WE CAN DO IT! LETS THROW OUT ALL THOSE CRAZY IDEAS AND WE MAY FIND LITTLE SHINNING GEMS THAT WOULD BE SUPER COOL TO SEE! HURAAAAAH!

 

[Flammifleure]

Some of the things I've heard about Lions of the North have certainly left a bad taste in my mouth. I personally doubt that EU4 is anywhere enar ending, but if it is, it's all the more reason in my opinion for the devs to roll back the absurdities and not leave us with a broken, unrealistic mess. But I don't see how it's relevant. (Re)Forming Rome, Great Moravia or Illyria are relatively plausible to my mind.

In terms of Great Moravia; I think both sides are fair -- it's reasonable to say that that should not be a formable tag, and that it's more realistic to just have Moravia and Nitra each grow from duchy to kingdom to empire. However I also think it's plausible, as I said, for them to crown themselves Kings of Great Moravia if they had succeeded in uniting the region under their rule. And I do further think that, though it's a stretch, a monarch of an ascendant Lusatia or Silesia might also claim that mantle. (Not the Czechs -- Czechia=Bohemia, so they have no reason to form anything else other than the HRE.) The fact that they can point to a historic precedent would give them legitmacy for their conquests.

Whether Great Moravia is made a formable tag or not, I would like to see a "west Slavic" mission tree for Nitra, Moravia, Lusatia and Silesia that would model, first independence from Bohemia/Hungary, then conquering the lands of Great Moravia, then conquering the rest of Poland and Hungary, and culminating in a pan-Slavic push to extend the empire over the Balkans and Russia. And perhaps a Polish minor tree for Mazovia and Krakow to conquer/rebuild Poland (with Silesia partaking of both, possibly using the new hidden missions mechanic depending on which direction the player wishes to go).

Wiki's map of Great Moravia's greatest extent, with key:

File:Great Moravia-eng.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

On the subject of Illyria, I don't have a lot to say; though I'm willing to link some old posts I can find on the topic. I've certainly been convinced that "Illyria" was how people thought of the northwestern Balkans during this timeframe, and that a king who consolidated the region would likely have chosen to style his kingdom thus.

 

[Eliseon]

Now that i think of it, EU4 could easily have a themed DLC around specific eras and with some insane alternate cases as well. Sunset Invasion was something like that for CK2 from what i see.
You could have a thematic dlc based on hellenistic era, early medieval times etc (new formables, mission trees and national ideas, religions and culture groups).
I dont think it would go far from mechanical perspective and it wouldnt need to tbh. It could be full flavor DLC so people who are not all in for this kind of gameplay, could just skip it entirely... then again Paradox wouldnt make such a DLC if it wasnt going to make them money.
But i was always jealous of CK2 that got an earlier bookmark (based on viking era if i remember correctly). A shame we havent already gotten something like that in EU4. Now that i think of it, this could be its own suggestion.