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Vainglory

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But what is the theory exactly? That early ties can always be manipulated by wolves?

It's more complicated in Meso because we aren't guaranteed an 1 hunt 1 lynch per day as with a Lite, and also because a hunt can get a wolf and so the steady -3 villagers per day is thrown out. Nonetheless using 12/4/1 Lite is the easiest way to demonstrate. Counting a seer as a villager for this purpose, after night 0 without a wolf lynching it proceeds:

Day 1 12-4
Day 2 10-4
Day 3 8-4
Day 4 6-4
Day 5 4-4

Because of the game's structure, killing one extra villager, IE a tie with two players, won't bring parity any closer: 5-4 isn't parity; 3-4 and 4-4 are functionally the same. Thus, it doesn't hurt to lynch 1 extra in a Lite.

On the fourth day parity beckons, so if the village lynches two players they double their chances of getting a wolf, precisely as you said, and if they bag just one then the game continues with 4-3 (one dead villager from lynch, one from hunt, one dead wolf from lynch). Thus a last day tie is a nothing ventured (parity will be no closer), everything gained, for the village: if they're wrong, they lose, but that's the same for with a single lynch. If they're right they continue for another day, and if they're right twice they've eliminated two wolves.

The reason to wait until the last day is first, more information, second, the closer we are to parity the more likely we are to bag a waffle on simple odds.

I will admit that with Meso's 2 hunts 1 lynch that can morph to 1 hunt 1 lynch we potentially can lynch more than 1 extra player without bringing parity closer, but we might find the opposite, that we have brought parity closer. Might as well wait until we're closer to parity for the information and playing the odds, as to engage in ties now.
 

Capt. Kiwi

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(5) Titania - Touchstone (445), Lady Kaede (481), Ainu (491), Ah Q (516), Macbeth (517)
...
(3) Macbeth - Hidetora (430), Falstaff (437), Blackadder (476)
(3) Romeo - Lady Sué (435), Napoleon (439), Henry V (508)
...
(1) Napoleon - Edmund (433)
(1) Blackadder - Titania (432)

Does anyone dispute this? And if Titania is around, could you please post your role so I can go to bed in peace? :)
 

Capt. Kiwi

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It's more complicated in Meso because we aren't guaranteed an 1 hunt 1 lynch per day as with a Lite, and also because a hunt can get a wolf and so the steady -3 villagers per day is thrown out. Nonetheless using 12/4/1 Lite is the easiest way to demonstrate. Counting a seer as a villager for this purpose, after night 0 without a wolf lynching it proceeds:

Day 1 12-4
Day 2 10-4
Day 3 8-4
Day 4 6-4
Day 5 4-4

Because of the game's structure, killing one extra villager, IE a tie with two players, won't bring parity any closer: 5-4 isn't parity; 3-4 and 4-4 are functionally the same. Thus, it doesn't hurt to lynch 1 extra in a Lite.

On the fourth day parity beckons, so if the village lynches two players they double their chances of getting a wolf, precisely as you said, and if they bag just one then the game continues with 4-3 (one dead villager from lynch, one from hunt, one dead wolf from lynch). Thus a last day tie is a nothing ventured (parity will be no closer), everything gained, for the village: if they're wrong, they lose, but that's the same for with a single lynch. If they're right they continue for another day, and if they're right twice they've eliminated two wolves.

The reason to wait until the last day is first, more information, second, the closer we are to parity the more likely we are to bag a waffle on simple odds.

I will admit that with Meso's 2 hunts 1 lynch that can morph to 1 hunt 1 lynch we potentially can lynch more than 1 extra player without bringing parity closer, but we might find the opposite, that we have brought parity closer. Might as well wait until we're closer to parity for the information and playing the odds, as to engage in ties now.

Not quite. You're analysis is right, except it should read "penultimate day" not "last". A last day tie will get sniped to hell, and not in the village's favour. A day earlier and it doesn't matter so much.
 

reis91

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Thus, it doesn't hurt to lynch 1 extra in a Lite.

Doesn't hurt is different than early ties are bad. And the closer you are to parity, the more likely wolves will go all out on the snipers to win the game.

And ties yield plenty of information, too. Furthermore, and now specific to Meso, we want both packs whittled to the point where they can successfully stab the other pack and wipe them out.
 

randakar

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Not quite. You're analysis is right, except it should read "penultimate day" not "last". A last day tie will get sniped to hell, and not in the village's favour. A day earlier and it doesn't matter so much.

Exactly.
I know because I've done it. Twice. :p

(No wait - it might even be three times. Though the last one was a big game where we lynched the Seer and ended up hunting the doc, resulting in the rather odd situation of having 3 baddies vs 3 goodies and one unconscious goodie that couldn't vote .. )
 

Vainglory

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I'm not sure that I've seen either a penultimate day or last day tie attempt succeed, although there was Esemesas' memorable tie-snipe that killed the last two wolves in Invasion Normandy (14 See Lite, CCV, "Invasion Normandy", p. 15) ;)

Certainly I wouldn't dispute going for a penultimate rather than last-day tie attempt. I know I've ruined at least one attempt at a last day tie.

@ Reis

Except that if you got two villagers with your early tie, which is more likely than if you try it later, then you can't go for another tie later on because that'll mean you need to bag two wolves to survive another day. I'm not saying it is objectively wrong to tie players earlier in the game, but I believe the case for doing it later is far stronger. Plus in Meso you could end up bringing parity closer with just one tie. Now if Titania and I were both outed, sure, a tie is in order, but the case against me amounted to "You got defensive". Pathetic.
 

randakar

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Praise be to his name!

There have been at least 2 instances of a 5-way tie with 4 or more baddies in them, if I recall correctly.
I was the only goodie caught in one of them :(
 

reis91

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Operation Valkyrie?
 

randakar

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How in God's name are the wolves that disorganized?

The first time it happened I wasn't there, so I have no idea.

The second time it happened mostly because walrus put this intensely overpowered role into the game that could basically send half the village to prison and make them unable to vote (or hunt, or .. well, anything), thus enabling the JL to lynch everyone not on their list of cleared goodies.

Yeah, that role was never used again :p
 

Najs

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I, Sir Falstaff, demand an update! Oblige or risk sudden death by sword penetration.
 
Last edited:

esemesas

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Vainglory

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The first time it happened I wasn't there, so I have no idea.

The second time it happened mostly because walrus put this intensely overpowered role into the game that could basically send half the village to prison and make them unable to vote (or hunt, or .. well, anything), thus enabling the JL to lynch everyone not on their list of cleared goodies.

Yeah, that role was never used again :p

Now I know what the noodle incident was that involved Walrus and GMing.
 

Bagricula

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Sorry, kids. Just had an excellent night out with Beijing Paradoxians. Putting together update now.