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johho888

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Werewolf CCXV: Fourtytwo

e70vOQ9.jpg

THE SETTING
(Role Playing Background only - skip if you are not interested)
Imagine we thought 2016 was bad! That was of course before the Zombie outbreak, before the Chinese spring, before the Alien invasion and before the California Superquake. But Humanity is at it's best when faced with impossible odds! Who can forget President Trump piloting one of the ships of the Allied stratoforces as they enabled the Russian hacker squad, lead in person by a barechested Putin, to gain access to the mothership and planting the virus that not only brought it crashing down in the South China Sea but also exposed all the alien e-mails? Or the Norwegian Astma Institute that found the Zombie infection blocker that enabled our beloved zombie ones to reenter the society?

But enough doom and gloom! We, living and zombie celebrities alike, have gathered here for Sundance to plan the rebuilding of the entertainment industry! Also to give ourselves awards, to party, to celebrate Life - or at least the not-death state! It's still 2017 but surely humanity have gotten it's fair share of disaters?

If you want to play just say so in a post in this thread. Game rules can be found in posts #2-3 and list of players in post #4.


Sign up is now open!

Preliminary Role assignment will start 20:00 CET (19:00 GMT) Friday the 5th.
Final role assignment will start 20:00 CET (19:00 GMT) Saturday the 6th.
First Night will fall 21:30 CET (20:30 GMT) Sunday the 7th.

Sign up here!
 

Wagonlitz

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I swear 'litz isn't normally like this around NYE/NYD.
It's excellent.
Don't think I post normally at that time exactly to avoid such posts. Though this year I was mad about my mailbox having been blown to smithereens. Bloody deadbeats. I assume I'll have to go to the post office to get my mail now; I don't even know where that is with how they have closed most post offices in the last few decades.
 

marty99

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I've been saying Werewolf is dead for nearly a decade. It has never been a truer statement than it now seems.

We need a savior. A hero.
Why exactly are player numbers so low? 9, 10 years ago when the game was young, every game would get 30+ and it would be easy to break 40. Nowadays it is almost impossible without a huge drive from a well-known GM. The forum has many more members now than it did then, perhaps by an order of magnitude. Numbers alone suggest we should be able to get the player numbers we want.

But we (or rather, you) don't. And also the fact that new players who join and become regular happens quite infrequently, and most of the playerbase, while I still consider them to be noobs, are quite old players by this point. So it is not only a small playerbase but a stagnant one as well.

Let's try and break down any possible reasons:
1.) Less exposure/advertising.
2.) The game has become less fun.
3.) Fatigue.
4.) It has outlived it's shelf life.

Anything else? Probably, but thinking in broad strokes I can't think of much else at the moment.

I don't think it's 4. Every decently run game has interesting, unique things happen in it. You can't say everything's already been done. If it feels like that's the case it's down to mismanagement, but it doesn't have to be that way. Besides, there are plenty of other games where possibilities have been sort of exhausted, but are still madly popular.

1 is a reason in my view. Despite the growing size of this sub-forum, I can't help but think that all those who said years ago that moving away from the OT would be a bad thing have been vindicated. It's quite possible that the games would simply have a much easier time filling up if it was still in there.
Does it need to be? No. If there was decent advertising/awareness being done, people would find their way here. But no one has ever really tried. I guess it just seems like a daunting task. Not in terms of time, it would take a fraction of the time wasted on this forum weekly, but it is challenging and putting yourself out there and I guess that's why no one including me has ever done it.

2 is also possibly a factor. Despite the meta of the game being more developed and the median level of player probably objectively better than, say 2007, the games are not concurrently more fun. Maybe it's because people take them too seriously. A lot of it though I think is due to poor game management. But when good games come along they are still very fun.

I think fatigue is a big factor however.
I've said for some years that the focus on always having a game up is misplaced. It may seem like it generates momentum but in reality it generates fatigue moreso. If things are a bit stale, if signups are low, inactivity is high, or if no one really wants to GM, take a break for a week or two. People who must play all the time can still play Lite.
I think this should at least be tried. Constantly having one game after another with pitiful numbers in them is not working right now it seems.

In terms of player days per year, having constantly one big running is probably optimal. However I'm not sure that's what people want. At the least it's not what I would want. I would rather have 15 forty player games a year, lasting an average of 15 days for a total of 225 days played a year, and 140 days without a game (including signups but still), than like 50 games of twenty players lasting 7 days, even if there was always a game running. Would you? Would you not? I honestly want replies to this.
As it stands you have the latter. Approximately.

I think those 3 things are all areas in which tangible improvements can be profitably made.


You people spend too much time playing mediocre games to put this little reflection into how to make it better. It's not a question of time or effort; plenty of you sink many hours in here every week to little purpose. I think the issue is that the community is far too reactive. You go through the motions, putting up each game faithfully, complaining when someone makes a bad setup, noting the lack of players, but you don't take the initiative. I'm not even generalising; I honestly don't think there's a single person who has tried to take the initiative to explore how to make the game better and that includes me when I played. The closest perhaps was Ironhead.

The frustrating thing is that these problems are fixable, at least that's my take. And it is in your reach to do so.

To play amateur psychologist for a second, perhaps the reason is that taking time to reflect on the meta of the game seems too serious. It's fine to sink 10 hours a week into analysing a text-based forum game as long as it's something you kinda just do in your free time or in work or whatever. But actually taking steps to think about how you can work to secure the long-term health and future prosperity of a text-based forum game does seem a little too involved, emotionally speaking. But in terms of the fun you get out, it would be worth it.


It's not really my problem. It's just that in my current state I've been thinking it would be fun to make another epic game at some point. I think with a little effort I could create soaring narratives and a truly memorable experience (maybe I've been watching too much Westworld lately) and just generally feed my ego a bit more. But to do so I need a healthy-sized playerbase. Johho may get a decent number and no doubt it will be a good game regardless, but things will probably just fall back straight after.
I also might play again with a sockpuppet sometime and it would be nice having greater scope tofuckaround with.

Overall though it won't really affect me as I remain retired. But, I have nothing to do right now and when I'm hungover I tend to be able to follow a train of thought better so I just kind of wrote this on the spur of the moment. In the time between finishing it and posting it I have since lost interest again but I may as well submit it anyway.




To summarise: yes you can make werewolf alive again (MWAA), if you want to. It won't take a huge time expenditure, but it will require a little more introspection and proactivity than is usually seen around here. Best of luck if anyone chooses to go down that road.


Oh and Happy New Year, motherfuckers.
 

Tornadoli

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2 big reasons in my opinion why people are leaving and why few people join are:

1) The atmosphere of the games. It's ok at best, and downright toxic at worst. Seriously, as far as I remember, when I joined the game people weren't regularly (and not jokingly) insulting each other and doing vicious personal attacks. When someone comes home from work or school, they just want to have fun playing werewolf, doing some analysis, killing each other off, plotting behind each others' backs, etc. People don't want to come home just to be called an idiot or a moron for some bad analysis.

2) The spam. The spam is so bad these days. Won't point fingers, but the people know. It's just very annoying, and I've seen new players post in threads that there is just too much irrelevant stuff to sift through to get the game-related posts. Imagine if you joined a game which is completely unknown to you, and you come back a few hours later and the whole thread is about trains or some candy, instead of the game. The spam in the game threads needs to stop.

The thing is that these two points (especially the spam bit) have been pointed out again and again, but ignored just as much. We need to start getting our shit together, or we will end up with empty games full of spam posts that no one participates in.
 

Kaisersohaib

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2 big reasons in my opinion why people are leaving and why few people join are:

1) The atmosphere of the games. It's ok at best, and downright toxic at worst. Seriously, as far as I remember, when I joined the game people weren't regularly (and not jokingly) insulting each other and doing vicious personal attacks. When someone comes home from work or school, they just want to have fun playing werewolf, doing some analysis, killing each other off, plotting behind each others' backs, etc. People don't want to come home just to be called an idiot or a moron for some bad analysis.

2) The spam. The spam is so bad these days. Won't point fingers, but the people know. It's just very annoying, and I've seen new players post in threads that there is just too much irrelevant stuff to sift through to get the game-related posts. Imagine if you joined a game which is completely unknown to you, and you come back a few hours later and the whole thread is about trains or some candy, instead of the game. The spam in the game threads needs to stop.

The thing is that these two points (especially the spam bit) have been pointed out again and again, but ignored just as much. We need to start getting our **** together, or we will end up with empty games full of spam posts that no one participates in.
I agree unconditionally with the second point. The unnecessary spam by users that have been confronted about it is incredibly annoying, yet most of the users that have been around for a long time have spared no effort scolding spammers, instead opting for 'getting used to it' instead of improvement. It's not quirky and it's also not funny, it's fine to have small OOC convos during the game, but when >50% of your thread posts are about licorice and linguistics, there's a problem.

I don't know about No.1. Ever since I joined the forum users greet you with a faux-friendly 'Welcome on board', only to consistently insult and critique you, leaving newbies no place for learning or playing, this was my personal experience and that of many others (although some people were honestly supportive, take @marty99 f.e). The atmosphere is indeed toxic, beyond the accepted 'internet banter' which everyone loves and recognizes.

Also, kind of funny for you to say anything about toxic atmospheres and insults, Tornadoli. :oops:
 

Tornadoli

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Also, kind of funny for you to say anything about toxic atmospheres and insults, Tornadoli. :oops:

I don't insult people. I have other flaws, but I don't insult.

At least, I try to. Fact is, it becomes a bit of a trap. Some people start the whole insulting other players thing, then other people follow suit because that's just human nature, someone insults you, you get pissed off, insult them back, etc.etc. I was always against this, but it's likely that I sometimes did take part in it, because I am just a human after all.

We all need to start with ourselves, of course, but that doesn't mean I can't bring it to the attention of everyone.
 

jeray2000

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2 big reasons in my opinion why people are leaving and why few people join are:

1) The atmosphere of the games. It's ok at best, and downright toxic at worst. Seriously, as far as I remember, when I joined the game people weren't regularly (and not jokingly) insulting each other and doing vicious personal attacks. When someone comes home from work or school, they just want to have fun playing werewolf, doing some analysis, killing each other off, plotting behind each others' backs, etc. People don't want to come home just to be called an idiot or a moron for some bad analysis.

2) The spam. The spam is so bad these days. Won't point fingers, but the people know. It's just very annoying, and I've seen new players post in threads that there is just too much irrelevant stuff to sift through to get the game-related posts. Imagine if you joined a game which is completely unknown to you, and you come back a few hours later and the whole thread is about trains or some candy, instead of the game. The spam in the game threads needs to stop.

The thing is that these two points (especially the spam bit) have been pointed out again and again, but ignored just as much. We need to start getting our **** together, or we will end up with empty games full of spam posts that no one participates in.

Both points are not an issue for me personally, I'm fine with both for the most part, but I think I will try to help stop this since it does appear to be an issue with others.
 

marty99

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2 big reasons in my opinion why people are leaving and why few people join are:

1) The atmosphere of the games. It's ok at best, and downright toxic at worst. Seriously, as far as I remember, when I joined the game people weren't regularly (and not jokingly) insulting each other and doing vicious personal attacks. When someone comes home from work or school, they just want to have fun playing werewolf, doing some analysis, killing each other off, plotting behind each others' backs, etc. People don't want to come home just to be called an idiot or a moron for some bad analysis.

2) The spam. The spam is so bad these days. Won't point fingers, but the people know. It's just very annoying, and I've seen new players post in threads that there is just too much irrelevant stuff to sift through to get the game-related posts. Imagine if you joined a game which is completely unknown to you, and you come back a few hours later and the whole thread is about trains or some candy, instead of the game. The spam in the game threads needs to stop.

The thing is that these two points (especially the spam bit) have been pointed out again and again, but ignored just as much. We need to start getting our **** together, or we will end up with empty games full of spam posts that no one participates in.
Good post and I agree broadly with all of it. This would fall under #2 in my post, but I didn't flesh it out enough.

The Off-topic thread could and should have been the solution to this, but while people post there it hasn't seemed to stop people spamming in threads any less. But maybe be harsher on people who do. GMs should consider warning people who spam (I regret not doing this at times) and a more general disapproval by the community. And move spammy discussions to the thread. That thread is for the whole forum but IIRC it's really mostly werewolf players who post there anyway so you're still talking to the same people.

Use the off-topic thread!
I agree unconditionally with the second point. The unnecessary spam by users that have been confronted about it is incredibly annoying, yet most of the users that have been around for a long time have spared no effort scolding spammers, instead opting for 'getting used to it' instead of improvement. It's not quirky and it's also not funny, it's fine to have small OOC convos during the game, but when >50% of your thread posts are about licorice and linguistics, there's a problem.

I don't know about No.1. Ever since I joined the forum users greet you with a faux-friendly 'Welcome on board', only to consistently insult and critique you, leaving newbies no place for learning or playing, this was my personal experience and that of many others (although some people were honestly supportive, take @marty99 f.e). The atmosphere is indeed toxic, beyond the accepted 'internet banter' which everyone loves and recognizes.
Also, kind of funny for you to say anything about toxic atmospheres and insults, Tornadoli. :oops:
Yeah I think people just need to be nicer. Thanks for the kind words although I don't think I was always the most welcoming player myself. One thing I didn't do though was denigrate new players for not knowing the accepted strategies. I think you just have to make peace with the fact that some people will play the game badly (by your POV) and some will try weird plays and these should almost be encouraged. The only thing I don't like to see is early outings, and that's not even so much for analysis reasons but simply because it kills the game a little. I like to see people doing things that make the game more interesting but even still one shouldn't flame people for not doing so.

Funny to see the word toxic come up. Recently I have seen it become almost ubiquitous in some other internet contexts whereas I don't recall seeing it used in this meaning before a few months ago. But maybe it has always been used and it's just a case of baader-meinhof. But I really am seeing it used a lot these days.


Another thing I particularly hate is when people say 'x is a bad player'. It's honestly really rude and while I haven't got that personally here myself, I have in other games and it makes me feel really quite shit. I get that there is a large gulf in quality between players but this still shouldn't be said. We are not journalists critiquing a professional footballer who makes 100k a week; it's just a game and people should be careful with their words.
 

johho888

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Let's try and break down any possible reasons:
1.) Less exposure/advertising.
2.) The game has become less fun.
3.) Fatigue.
4.) It has outlived it's shelf life.
1) Leaving OT meant less exposure and less influx of new people but then as you point out a lot of other forum games in this very subforum seems to flourish. The OT itself isn't as diverse and interesting as it were back in the OT werewolf days either.
2) On average I would agree, but I'm not sure if it isn't 3) or if it's what Tornadoli is talking about. Also I miss the role playing part of the games of old, which might have made the games less serious. Some games are still really tense and fun to play.
4) Probably not.

2 big reasons in my opinion why people are leaving and why few people join are:

1) The atmosphere of the games. It's ok at best, and downright toxic at worst. Seriously, as far as I remember, when I joined the game people weren't regularly (and not jokingly) insulting each other and doing vicious personal attacks. When someone comes home from work or school, they just want to have fun playing werewolf, doing some analysis, killing each other off, plotting behind each others' backs, etc. People don't want to come home just to be called an idiot or a moron for some bad analysis.

2) The spam. The spam is so bad these days. Won't point fingers, but the people know. It's just very annoying, and I've seen new players post in threads that there is just too much irrelevant stuff to sift through to get the game-related posts. Imagine if you joined a game which is completely unknown to you, and you come back a few hours later and the whole thread is about trains or some candy, instead of the game. The spam in the game threads needs to stop.

The thing is that these two points (especially the spam bit) have been pointed out again and again, but ignored just as much. We need to start getting our **** together, or we will end up with empty games full of spam posts that no one participates in.
Like jeray say, I don't particularly mind these personally but they don't really add anything positive to the games.
 

Kaisersohaib

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Another thing I particularly hate is when people say 'x is a bad player'. It's honestly really rude and while I haven't got that personally here myself, I have in other games and it makes me feel really quite ****. I get that there is a large gulf in quality between players but this still shouldn't be said. We are not journalists critiquing a professional footballer who makes 100k a week; it's just a game and people should be careful with their words.
!!!
 

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So we've looped back to introspection once more... I won't say that it is bad. We need to look into ourselves to try and to figure out what is wrong there to fix the issue. However just talking about it isn't going to fix much.

I largely agree with what marty has posited, but it seems to me that we seem to constantly be looking backwards. Now this is to be expected from a forum full of history buffs, however constantly talking of past glories now passed isn't going to solve the worries we currently have. The past is gone, some of the relics of the glorious WW past still linger though, SPLIT and EURO for one.

As marty said we need to figure out a way to find a way to not just march on with WW, but to make it shine once more. To break the mold as they say. However just saying that something needs to be done won't do much. So something new needs to be brought forth, something that isn't the Ironhead variants, pickpoints, FRIENDZ or the normal run of the mill creation. Something with an unexplored meta an untouched Eden, if it maybe called so.
 

marty99

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So we've looped back to introspection once more... I won't say that it is bad. We need to look into ourselves to try and to figure out what is wrong there to fix the issue. However just talking about it isn't going to fix much.

I largely agree with what marty has posited, but it seems to me that we seem to constantly be looking backwards. Now this is to be expected from a forum full of history buffs, however constantly talking of past glories now passed isn't going to solve the worries we currently have. The past is gone, some of the relics of the glorious WW past still linger though, SPLIT and EURO for one.

As marty said we need to figure out a way to find a way to not just march on with WW, but to make it shine once more. To break the mold as they say. However just saying that something needs to be done won't do much. So something new needs to be brought forth, something that isn't the Ironhead variants, pickpoints, FRIENDZ or the normal run of the mill creation. Something with an unexplored meta an untouched Eden, if it maybe called so.
You're right and I have a feeling this will lead to nothing. Something does need to be done but it just isn't going to be me as I'm only stopping by to talk. I feel like I would be able to do it though if I tried. You guys, and I when I played, aren't doing enough to make it good again. But you can.

So let's talk about concrete things you can do:

1. Create a thread in OT actually explaining what werewolf is a fun and sexy way and really try and talk to people there. A few of our threads there haven't gone well but firstly they weren't ambitious and secondly they were ruined by some things like posters talking about spam and one time by an amazingly annoying troll. It has been a long time and people by and large do not remember the OT forum when werewolf was there. Create a thread, explain the game, show exactly how it can be fun (people's perception is very different to what it actually is) and have multiple posters doing it. Start a conversation with other OTers trying to them interested.

2. Encourage GMs to warn and eventually punish people who spam. This has always been allowed in theory but never really enforced. But it's not hard to do.

3. Ditto for toxic behaviour.

4. Leave larger gaps between games when appropriate. A week, maybe two if/when people aren't feeling it.

5. Try to build a guide on how to GM well. White Daimon made a good start many years ago, but abandoned. It's actually good enough as it is but people probably aren't aware of it. I don't know of any such attempts in recent years. Why not revive that thread or create a new one? I'm mindful of what I said about being nice but a LOT of games fail because of ill-conceived setups. It can happen to anyone but with a little bit of foresight and experience you can prevent most pitfalls. This should lead to more balanced and therefore better games.
 
Last edited:

JCan

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RE: the spam:
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the spam doesn't last that long (in terms of game days/nights), and without it things turn a bit toxic.

I don't mind the spam personally, but I can appreciate that it can be frustrating for some.
 

Jacksonian Missionary

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There is a reason I link to damius' gm thread because while unfinished it is a fantastic guide that I consult before every game (here's where you can say I suck at gming and such). I also link MC's guide to voting and analysis, as well as ironheads voting thing. I hope that people actually go out of their way and try to read them, as they made me a better WW player and should be very beneficial to all.

I'll admit I get far too abrasive in some games, and that it is a forum wide problem with some of the players )not going to name names but I am one of them). Especially the vitriol we show to noobs who make mistakes. For me, getting ridiculed and lynched for slip ups helped me improve, but for the vast majority of people it only discourages them so a culture change where we have creative, we'll run games by good GMs and a healthy non abrasive player base is in order. And I think we all have to look in the mirror to see how we can improve.

On spam I've found that a simple reminder to post in the off topic thread immediately derails spam and it generally doesn't pop up again for the rest of the game. All the GMs need to do is put a firm request to stop spam, threats usually aren't needed.

The question I have is are we allowed to advertise in the OT? I was always under the assumption that we weren't and to keep the werewolf stuff in OT games.
 

johho888

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The question I have is are we allowed to advertise in the OT? I was always under the assumption that we weren't and to keep the werewolf stuff in OT games.
We are allowed one (1) ad at a time in OT. Either by reusing one of the existing threads or by making a new one.

Using an existing one might help with people who played before and subscribed to that thread but doesn't seem to attract a lot of new players. If you as a GM have the time and energy I suggest you write a completely new OT thread. Last time I did that we got 2-4 new players.
 

ramius3443

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As a relative new comer to WW, I'd say by far my biggest pet peeve is the massive amount of irrelevant posts in between day 0-1. It leads me to completely ignore dozens of pages worth of mostly meaningless posts, only to then be confronted with accusations of being a wolf or whatever for not having noticed some odd behavior starting with a post on page 23 (on day 0!!!). My time commitments can be variable, so I rarely if every actually catch up to the current discussions and posts since I fall behind before any real things start occurring.
I'm also not a fan of role spam and massively complicated rule sets, but that's more a personal preference than an actual critique.

Admittedly, I can be a rather lazy and inattentive WW player at times, so perhaps my two cents isn't worth too much.
 

Daffius

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Some interesting points, but I see another major issue currently with the community. The hunts. Essentially, anyone that is actively trying to catch wolves gets hunted. I don't blame the wolves for this, as asking them to hunt inactives would essentialy be asking them to shoot themselves in the foot and lose the game for no apparent reason. While we do have some active members, most just lurk through the game. I can see how that is not appealing to newbs who are trying to get into the game. The fun of the game is analysis and going through what people say, how they say it and looking for logical contradictions. Without that, what's the point? However if you do it well now, then you suddenly climb to the top of the hunt list.

You could argue it's the nature of the game, but it actually isn't. Not in a community where everyone is active. Such a community would be utopian though and we don't have enough members to fill a roster, let alone select people.

For me personally this got to a point were any traits I had I blew on the first couple of days. Alternatively I just queitly cruised through games, which essentially stopped being fun. Hence I stopped playing even though I miss it at times and sign-up once in a blue moon only to realise why I quit in the first place.
 

esemesas

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Some interesting points, but I see another major issue currently with the community. The hunts. Essentially, anyone that is actively trying to catch wolves gets hunted. I don't blame the wolves for this, as asking them to hunt inactives would essentialy be asking them to shoot themselves in the foot and lose the game for no apparent reason. While we do have some active members, most just lurk through the game. I can see how that is not appealing to newbs who are trying to get into the game. The fun of the game is analysis and going through what people say, how they say it and looking for logical contradictions. Without that, what's the point? However if you do it well now, then you suddenly climb to the top of the hunt list.

You could argue it's the nature of the game, but it actually isn't. Not in a community where everyone is active. Such a community would be utopian though and we don't have enough members to fill a roster, let alone select people.

For me personally this got to a point were any traits I had I blew on the first couple of days. Alternatively I just queitly cruised through games, which essentially stopped being fun. Hence I stopped playing even though I miss it at times and sign-up once in a blue moon only to realise why I quit in the first place.

I think this issue is related to the small game sizes. In a small game (say, 20-25 people) things are usually pretty straightforward, but 40+ player games tend to have both more players (and thus, more active players) as well as more features (thus, discouraging hunting active players).
 

madchemist

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Some interesting points, but I see another major issue currently with the community. The hunts. Essentially, anyone that is actively trying to catch wolves gets hunted. I don't blame the wolves for this, as asking them to hunt inactives would essentialy be asking them to shoot themselves in the foot and lose the game for no apparent reason. While we do have some active members, most just lurk through the game. I can see how that is not appealing to newbs who are trying to get into the game. The fun of the game is analysis and going through what people say, how they say it and looking for logical contradictions. Without that, what's the point? However if you do it well now, then you suddenly climb to the top of the hunt list.

You could argue it's the nature of the game, but it actually isn't. Not in a community where everyone is active. Such a community would be utopian though and we don't have enough members to fill a roster, let alone select people.

For me personally this got to a point were any traits I had I blew on the first couple of days. Alternatively I just queitly cruised through games, which essentially stopped being fun. Hence I stopped playing even though I miss it at times and sign-up once in a blue moon only to realise why I quit in the first place.

My solution is to be so valuable that hunting you would be a major negative to the wolves on the off-chance that you're a sorc (or even a wolf of the opposite pack). :D

Doesn't work so well in Lites, though. And usually you get hunted sooner or later anyway, just not in the first couple nights.


I might address marty's stuff eventually, but I've kinda stopped having a reason to worry about it.