Werewolf General Planning Thread

[EUROO7]

Here are the PM's regarding the incident.


The first was sent by Nautilu to Johho and EUROO7. I replied to both, but Johho sent the last bit only to me because it contained information Nautilu could not have, being a living player in the big game.

I didn't. But I told someone else who isn't playing, because it was relevant to the Big game, and apparently he forwarded on to Arkasas by mistake. I'm very angry at him about it, and I'm extremely sorry.

Arkasas knows that I am the seer in lite.
If Arkasas is a wolf in the lite game and is a wolf or has an apprentice contact with someone in Big game, I find this unfair and violation of a lot of rules both from Marty, and the person he send this PM to.
I also find this unfair to the rest of the villagers in the lite game. I wanted to ask Wagonlitz to do something but as he is still playing the Big Game, I am not sure.

While this does give the appearance of impropriety, I couldn't completely condemn it based on rule violation. Players are not prohibited from providing game related information to non-players. The ghost rule might be applied to the non-player who provided Arkasas with the information, but I cannot see how Wagonlitz the lite GM would be able to effectively do anything about it. Arkasas's source should be reprimanded after the conclusion of both games, so as to prevent further influence on either game. Wagonlitz should be informed as soon as he is either dead in the big game or his lite game ends, whichever occurs first. His game is the one where the rule was broken, so he should be involved in any discussion.

I've seen this discussed both in the JL and in one of the packs - not the one that hunts tonight - but I can't really see what I can do about it without giving away information the players shouldn't have. Both of the groups seem to have come to the conclusion this is about the Lite game so I think it will not affect the Big game. Not going to tell this to Nautilu because he shouldn't know.

The hubbub occurs, so EUROO7 prompts all involved to PM him the details.

Me Nautilu Rovsea in JL in Lite. Me Randy and Arkasas in JL in Big. Rovsea pms randy or posts in the thread of the Big game "Nautilu is the seer", randy forwards this on to me in some way. I pm to randy, that fact that Naut is Lite seer, which I thought might be relevant and since randy wasn't playing in Big or on subbing list, a safe thing to do and also a piece of interest. Randy accidentally keeps this pm quoted in a larger exchange, which he sends to Arkasas and me in a pm. Arkasas now knows Lite seer. Arkasas SEEMs to be a wolf, and posts in the thread the fact I know the seer and that he knows who the seer is.

If I interpret this correctly randakar of all people is the one that leaked the information...

I think I saw a quote by Rovsea that "Nautilu is the seer" so I thought it was him but maybe he is a packmates of Arkasas in the Lite game?

A few things:

1) All of you realise that leaking that name was an accident, right? Definitely NOT intended. I didn't even realise that information was in there.. I simply quoted it for the sake of replying to the latter bits.
2) Arkansas, did you REALLY have to gloat in the lite game about it? That's what turned this from a simple mistake into a giant mess that's likely to get you killed. Not cool.

I'm going offline for a bit to cool off. All of this is seriously annoying me. I can't defend myself against this without ruining this game, too. And people are talking about punishment as if this is a clear cut case of forwarding sensitive information for the heck of it...

I'm defending you here. This had got blown way out of proportion by Split.

This I think is the first I heard about it (apart from Wagonlitz the Lite GM asking me about something in Lite and mentioning Nautilu as the seer). marty doesn't seem involved at all.

Also, Nautilu is the seer. :mellow:

You are joking .. right?

Why do you ask? Are you a wolf looking for a good hunt tonight?...Wolf. :ninja:

Because if you weren't I'd have to move my vote.

EUROO7 then received the offending PM, both from Johho, the GM, and Randakar, the one who leaked.

And this is were it leaked to Arkasas. PM sent from randakar (priest's apprentice) to Arkasas (seer) and marty (double cleared villager). Seems legit to me. randakar didn't know Rovsea's statement wasn't about the Big. While the priest/apprentice has found baddies they only have Arkasas' word he is the seer so randakar can't know for sure if Arkasas is who he claims to be and this might just be a way to see his reaction to another seer claimant.

Note that Wagonlitz is a wolf in this game so you can't really discuss this with him without revealing the JL. OTOH Wagon's pack just found the seer through a SA cultist but still.

Also, Nautilu is the seer. :mellow:

You are joking .. right?

Nautilu is the seer in the Lite game (guess you can't sub in now, but I don't think you were planning to and there's 4 in the list anyway) I don't know if that's what's meant though,

You know the way I was complaining literally two days ago about (almost) never being in JLs in any way? No I'm in two, and last night I had to arrange the outing of a wolf in Lite and the saving of the Seer in Big at pretty much the exact same time. :rofl: While drunk. Be careful what you wish for...

By the way, the council has some protective powers. They can't be used on other members of the council, though. If you want me to do an outing, I'd much like to get in contact with a protector of some sort first.

Also...

You and 2knikk.

Panzer is lying here. One of my council mates who is not 2kNikk received this pm as well and forwarded it to me. Maybe you could wait a few hours, say to him "hold on, I got forwarded this from someone else, Panzer" and interrogate him about it. Try pressurise him into telling more of the truth.

The best way to get in contact with the protectors is to simply arrange for the outing. ;-)
Or at the very least, do a "hunters/assassins please contact me" thing, I presume Skobie used his pickpoints on something..

This is the offending PM. I completely forgot there was more to it than the bit I was replyig to, and I put the seer, the priest and marty on the recipient list (or bcc) as a matter of course.

This was really just a mistake, like that time you PM your pack PM to the seer as well..

Arkasas admits fault.

Okay. So I'm the seer in the big. Randy is the priest's apprentice, and supposedly we've both scanned marty. Marty PMed randy the seer's name, and randy, being the upstanding citizen that he is, sent his reply to me and johho, not noticing the seer's name was in it. I noticed. Being a villager in the Lite who was being bandwagoned, I mentioned it in the thread because I was pissed at them. If anyone needs to be punished, it should probably be me, though I still don't feel anyone needs to be punished. Any other questions?

Wagonlitz, the Lite GM where the offense occurred, offers his side of the story.

Hello, Wagonlitz.

Given the complex nature of the current investigation and your on-going involvement in the big game, I hope you understand that I cannot share everything with you, although your input will eventually be required. Depending on what information you have shared with team members in the big game, I would recommend requesting a substitute in order to preserve the integrity of that game, however that decision is entirely up to you.

I do need to know how much the wolf pack in your Werewolf Lite game has used outside information and in what way to properly gauge the extent of the influence this incident has caused.

Therefore, I am requesting the composition of the pack in the lite game and any PM’s they have sent to you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Just to make sure; you won't sub back into the big, so I can be completely frank?

Of course not.

Now that both deadlines are over and I have updated the lite I can get back to you.

Firstly I don't think that it compromises the integrity of the big that I continue playing, since I have all game had watertight bulkheads between Lite information and Big information. Some days ago Nautilu the Lite seer send me a very strange scanning order which I think most likely should have been sent to johho---it was completely different from the other scanning orders he has sent; it was e.g. titled WW and not WWL CCCVI: The Second Slesvig War. He also sent in another lite scanning order later which followed the pattern he has used all game. When asking if the new order overwrote the old one he gave a strange reply. So since then I have believed Nautilu has a scanning role or trait in the big, but I haven't told my pack anything---I haven't even randomly brought Nautilu up as a hunt target. I also think there is a couple other instances where lite information could have been used in the big, but if in doubt I won't use it, so I don't think I risk the integrity of the game. Furthermore I also know Arkasas' role anyway, since Panzer's SA pinged him as seer yesterday; and I know from Daffius that marty is in the Stonecutter's Guild and from Panzer that marty is in contact with/part of the JL.

You might not have picked this up in the big. When reading it I thought it really looked like Rovsea revealed the lite seer; especially since Arkasas is the big seer. So if Rovsea isn't the leak---and he cannot be, since he is still living in the lite---it appears there might have been a second leak. Or Rovsea was just joking and randomly hit the lite seer.

Revenge votes are petty. Also, Nautilu is the seer. :mellow:

Anyway, given this information, I'll:

Vote Enkhuush

The lite pack is Xarkan, Dexander, madchemist and 2kNikk; only Xarkan and Dexander are still alive. The seer is Nautilu.

The only one I have got discussion PM's from after the leak is Nautilu who sent me this when it all exploded. After consulting johho about what precedence there is I turned him down---appears johho and I had the same idea about what to do---and have been repeatedly turning him down all night. At one point he appeared really close to throwing the towel (he was contemplating about whether or not it being worth it to send in a scan), but luckily he did send in the scan seeing as Arkasas was a goodie. It even netted him a wolf.

If Arkasas is indeed a wolf, I do not think it is fair to the village.
Marty, while drunk, has told someone in big my role in Lite and that person has forwarded that PM to Ark.
I do not want to stop the game, but I think it should be fair.
Either give the village a free scan, autolynch Arkasas, or remove the ability of wolfs to hunt for 1 night. This way the balance will be kept.
If Ark is using meta information he should be punished, so should be the person who passed on this info to him, so should Marty.

With regard to the pack then it probably has influenced them. They hadn't sent in an order before shit hit the fan and the order they sent in was

Hunt marty99
Backup Arkasas

and it came after Arkasas had claimed in the thread that marty had given him the seer name. I cannot remember the exact wording---I delete most lite PMs immediately after saving the order because the big is PM crazy---but I think it mentioned the leak.

Later the hunt was changed to.

Hunt THE_SPLIT
Backup marty99

I seem to remember it was because of SPLIT posting really much about the leak in both big and lite. In general there isn't really written much in hunt orders and I don't think I have been CC'd a pack PM since day 1---at least not since madchemist died. So I don't know if it influenced pack discussion.

By the way I am almost entirely sure it was Xarkan who sent in both hunts.

He has by the way just sent in the order for next deadline.

Hunt marty99
Backup jonti-h

Not surpricing that marty is up again, but the seer is still safe and after tomorrow he will either have the name of the last wolf or a new JL member.

These, along with information I obtained from johho, lead me to believe that no intentional impropriety took place. Here is a timeline, with events differentiated between events (or PM's concerning a certain game) in lite or big:

• Rovsea is scanned by Nautilu the Seer (Lite JL: Nautilu, Marty, Rovsea)
  
• Rovsea posts "Nautilu is the seer" in the big game thread
  
• Randakar forwards Rovsea's public comment to Marty, requesting clarification.
  
• Marty informs Randakar that Nautilu is the seer in the Lite game.
  
• Randakar forwards Marty's reply to Arkasas (evidently without malicious intent)
  
• Arkasas makes his knowledge of the seer public in the Lite thread.
  
• Nautilu, the Lite Seer, contacts Johho & EUROO7 requesting advice on a course of action.
  
• Public discussion of the matter begins to consume both ongoing games

From this, it should be clear that no malicious intent was behind Marty's or Randakar's actions. Fortunately, the impact it had on Wagonlitz's lite game was minimal. Had Arkasas been a werewolf, I'm not sure that would have been the case. What we should take from this, I believe, is the following:

DON'T TALK ABOUT ONE GAME WITH PLAYERS OF ANOTHER GAME.

GOOD NIGHT.

​

 

[marty99]

My reply was relevant to the game though. I have no idea what Rovsea was doing, but his actions needed to be cleared up and I used all the information at my disposal. *shrug*

 

[Arkasas]

DON'T TALK ABOUT ONE GAME WITH PLAYERS OF ANOTHER GAME.

GOOD NIGHT.

​

Also, never assume I'm a wolf when I'm not.

 

[EUROO7]

Also, never assume I'm a wolf when I'm not.

It was fortunate for game balance that you were not a wolf, but that could have easily not been the case. This would have blown up the lite.

 

[Arkasas]

It was fortunate for game balance that you were not a wolf, but that could have easily not been the case. This would have blown up the lite.

You assume that I would not have done the honorable thing to do and pretended like I didn't know the seer's identity. Fair enough.

 

[EUROO7]

You assume that I would not have done the honorable thing to do and pretended like I didn't know the seer's identity. Fair enough.

You didn't do the honorable thing as a villager and not declare publicly that you knew the name of the seer. Also, the honorable thing to do as a wolf is not to ignore the information you have. That is impossible and it's idiotic. The honorable thing would have been to ask for a substitute.

 

[marty99]

You assume that I would not have done the honorable thing to do and pretended like I didn't know the seer's identity. Fair enough.

Why did you out the fact I was JL in the thread, again? Just out of raging curiosity.

 

[Lemeard]

Once again, EUROO7 has been just in his judgment.

Moving on.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

Once again, EUROO7 has been just in his judgment.

Moving on.

Move along folks nothing to see here. Move right along. Ignore the taser in my hand I will use on you for not moving along, and move along. Granted its possible I wont use the taser but instead will hit you with it.:ninja:


Honestly mistakes happen and intent is HUGE in situations like this. So listen to the wise swed.

 

[Wagonlitz]

My reply was relevant to the game though. I have no idea what Rovsea was doing, but his actions needed to be cleared up and I used all the information at my disposal. *shrug*

I am also interested in this.

Rovsea why did you proclaim Nautilu the seer in the big? Even if the claim had been intended for the lite it was a pretty strange claim with 8--9 hours to deadline.

I agree that this was an honest mistake and shouldn't be punished. As Jacob says intent is everything and as far as I have seen randy didn't intend to do it; it looks very much like that lite where I got autolynched for posting a PM which accidentally contained a tiny quote from EURO the GM.


SPLIT I have been wondering; did you shoot randy because you found out he was the leak?

 

[EUROO7]

it looks very much like that lite where I got autolynched for posting a PM which accidentally contained a tiny quote from EURO the GM.

I was also reminded of that incident. However, where the similarity ends is that the person who committed the violation of the rules was playing in the game as well. You, as GM, could do little to punish the violator.

 

[pjnlsn]

I'd like to suggest that future GMs of Bigs think about letting pick their roles with pick points. I really liked those. And if the GM in question doesn't feel like balancing that from scratch, they could possibly ask johho for his distribution.

 

[Rovsea]

I am also interested in this.

Rovsea why did you proclaim Nautilu the seer in the big? Even if the claim had been intended for the lite it was a pretty strange claim with 8--9 hours to deadline.

I agree that this was an honest mistake and shouldn't be punished. As Jacob says intent is everything and as far as I have seen randy didn't intend to do it; it looks very much like that lite where I got autolynched for posting a PM which accidentally contained a tiny quote from EURO the GM.


SPLIT I have been wondering; did you shoot randy because you found out he was the leak?

Believe it or not, Wagon, that was completely incidental. I wanted to see what the response to me posting that would be. In fact, both Randy and 2kNikk PMed me asking if I was serious. This netted me information that I could potentially use later. Honestly, I was also joking to an extent. I'm sorry that I happened to cause such a big mess, and I'll definitely be a lot more careful about something like this in the future.

 

[Falc]

So, I've had an idea in my head for a while now and if I don't actually speak up, it's never going to get anywhere.


I've had this idea for a game. It started off as just a Big game with a very special setup, but for various gameplay reasons I've had to move just a little bit beyond that. What I have now still looks a lot like Werewolf, but there are some differences in some areas, which you may or may not feel are crucial.

In short, some people would still call it Werewolf, others wouldn't. It all depends on how you define Werewolf.


You're probably wondering now just what those differences are.

Here we run into a little problem. I have come to believe that the experience of the game would be better if players went in without knowing all the rules. I believe that the uncertainty would add to the fun, in a way similar to the uncertainty of a Big game where you never know exactly what the setup is and how far or near you are to victory.

This doesn't mean you'll go in blind, of course. The basic rule of Werewolf remains: you need to vote someone every Day and you should really try to vote a baddie. Basic villagers will remain basic villagers and anyone who needs to know more will be told what he or she needs to know.

Because of this, I would prefer to keep at least part of the rules secret.


Now, I've been here long enough to know that this community is very, very wary of such unknown setups. My rules are actually quite simple and because of that, I do believe they are balanced and fair: every player will have pretty much the same chance of victory at the start of the game.

But I also know that my own Lites have been more on the experimental side and not always well received, so I will not expect you to trust me blindly. Instead, I know that there are long-time players around who, for various reasons, only play occasionally. I would therefore like to call on one or two of those veterans, to read over my rules and give me feedback. This would of course mean that, if they agree the rules are better kept secret, that they would not be allowed to play.


So, what do people think? If you're dead set against this, feel free to say so. I'm sort of aiming for 25 players, I don't need that many, but there's no point in putting more effort into it if it looks like I might not even get half that. If you have any other remarks, do share them.

 

[marty99]

I like the idea. Can't say much more without more detail.

 

[EUROO7]

Remind me of your lite games.

 

[marty99]

I like the idea. Can't say much more without more detail.

I will say that I've always wanted a few games with unknown rules, though. There was a big debate about them a few years ago and the side in favour resoundingly lost, to the point where it's long become anathema by now. But I'd love a game like it every now and then.

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

Sounds very vague, to be honest. No problem with not knowing all the details in the beginning but if there are major rules that people don't know then I'd certainly be wary of it. If it isn't horribly deviating I'd be willing to give it a go.

 

[Falc]

Remind me of your lite games.

I had one with 4 Witnesses instead of a Seer, and I believe one where the Seer only had a 50% chance of getting a result.

Both stemmed from a feeling in the community at that time that the Seer weighed too much on the game: if he dies early, the wolves win, if he lasts, the village wins.


Neither was a disaster but sign-ups were slow and neither really stoked the community's enthusiasm, so they weren't repeated.

 

[EUROO7]

I will say that I've always wanted a few games with unknown rules, though. There was a big debate about them a few years ago and the side in favour resoundingly lost, to the point where it's long become anathema by now. But I'd love a game like it every now and then.

I think the problem was we didn't trust anyone to be competent with hidden rules. The last GM who did it, as I recall, was Ironhead 5, and even that caused some controversy.