The point is that cultist, with the used rules, was far worse than being a villager.
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The point is that cultist, with the used rules, was far worse than being a villager.
That's not so much the problem - yes, you can do interesting things as a cultist. But the wolves know that. I've seen wolves eat cultists who contacted them, just in case. I've seen games where the JL won, even though there were a stack of cultists left - because the game was over with the last wolf dead, and the cultists had to surrender. The problem with them is that the interesting things they can do don't benefit their own side. Sure, they can try betraying one of the packs to give the other the advantage. It's not going to get them or their side closer to winning, though - it just puts a target on their head. Especially since they're an expendable way of saying "look at me, I got a bad person".
If you ever have time, please read the GM AAR in this Werewolf-XCIV-The-Zeroth-Law (links to the GM AAR are in the 3rd post). In this game I used my cultists in a positive way to try to win the game. It was a pity we failed in the end, but it was one of the best games I ever played.
Still, nothing that a couple of new rules for the role won't help. There's been an interesting discussion in this thread already, some pages back...
The main problem I have with the cultist rules are that they're stranded if all the wolves die, even if they're affiliated. To me the key aspects of cultists are that they start unattached, and that they scan differently. But the fact they can't win without wolves devalues any interest those two points create.
The first means that they can play off the different packs while looking to find the stronger one - but why should the packs be interested if you'd rather any number of cultists died to save a wolf, since you can't win without a wolf? So cultists are left out of the loop, or even hunted. The second creates paranoia in the village - but if all you need to do to win is kill wolves, suddenly cultists are only scary because of information. As long as you don't talk to strangers, you're fine. It can even be a bad thing to out a cultist - the baddies can gather around them.
The one change I would make is that when a cultist formally attaches to a pack, they gain the ability to hunt and still keep the game going like a wolf. Suddenly there's an incentive to get them, and an incentive to keep them in the loop. But they still start unattached, able to use their increased value as a bargaining chip. And suddenly the priest becomes valuable even in the end game - rather than having the sole purpose of getting the seer and sorceror as quickly as possible.
I think that's pretty much what randakar tried. And I liked it.
The first means that they can play off the different packs while looking to find the stronger one - but why should the packs be interested if you'd rather any number of cultists died to save a wolf, since you can't win without a wolf? So cultists are left out of the loop, or even hunted. The second creates paranoia in the village - but if all you need to do to win is kill wolves, suddenly cultists are only scary because of information. As long as you don't talk to strangers, you're fine. It can even be a bad thing to out a cultist - the baddies can gather around them.
The one change I would make is that when a cultist formally attaches to a pack, they gain the ability to hunt and still keep the game going like a wolf. Suddenly there's an incentive to get them, and an incentive to keep them in the loop. But they still start unattached, able to use their increased value as a bargaining chip. And suddenly the priest becomes valuable even in the end game - rather than having the sole purpose of getting the seer and sorceror as quickly as possible.
I think that's pretty much what randakar tried. And I liked it.
I would favor cultists being able to form a "cultist-faction", by getting in touch with each other's. The nightmare is to balance that out. RP-wise that could be explored in a myriad of ways, too.
I really like my variant of the cultist rules. Did I mention that yet?
Yeah Kiwi, what you propose is -exactly- what my cultist rules were all about.
What about:
Cultist : Scans every day for cultists (pack-affiliated, faction affiliated, and free, and they get informed about it in the scan) and sorcerer. Starts the game as a free agent. Once in contact with a wolf pack, he can join them if both sides formally agree to it. If a cultist manages to get in contact with x cultists, they can found a faction. (Proposal : They will gain a special hunt every x days that turns the target, if they have no roles, and kills them otherwise). Such a faction will win when they get rid of the wolfpacks and have parity with the village. Once in a faction, they can no longer affiliate themselves to any pack.
Would fit in extraordinarily well with subversion themes, too.
Cultist : Scans every day for cultists (pack-affiliated, faction affiliated, and free, and they get informed about it in the scan) and sorcerer. Starts the game as a free agent. Once in contact with a wolf pack, he can join them if both sides formally agree to it. If a cultist manages to get in contact with x cultists, they can found a faction. (Proposal : They will gain a special hunt every x days that turns the target, if they have no roles, and kills them otherwise). Such a faction will win when they get rid of the wolfpacks and have parity with the village. Once in a faction, they can no longer affiliate themselves to any pack.
Would fit in extraordinarily well with subversion themes, too.
or get rid of sorcerer and have the cultist scan instead.
or keep the sorcerer but give the cultist "trait scanning" instead of role-scanning. it might be useful if wolves knew who is blessed (so to get them lynched) or was cursed (easy prey!). Depending on what is used for traits or roles, this could open up the possibilities with regard to leaders, witnesses, hunters, rivals, and lovers.
or keep the sorcerer but give the cultist "trait scanning" instead of role-scanning. it might be useful if wolves knew who is blessed (so to get them lynched) or was cursed (easy prey!). Depending on what is used for traits or roles, this could open up the possibilities with regard to leaders, witnesses, hunters, rivals, and lovers.
I am ________ (can't find word, will edit in later, for now insert "opposed") to create more roles than necessary. It is to the GM to balance the game. If more abilities are required to help achieve this, they should come through the form and shape of traits, available to both sides, not roles.
I'm saying cultist should be kept as is. An evil villager. That's all it is, all it has been, all it should be.
And yet it doesn't work. The wolves don't trust cultists, having no reason to need to. If cultist were really just about being an evil villager, they'd have no master, and would scan as a villager to everyone. It's not about that - it's about an unaffiliated, unknown group to be collected together before it can sell you out for the other group.
Actually, I prefer no cultists at all. Lite is my preferred setup, but Big is interesting in its own way.
Stupid wolves don't use their cultists. Stupid cultist gets a boring game. Stupid players gets punished. I see no problem with that.
Aren't wolves evil villagers, too?
All I'm proposing is to make cultists more like wolves.
I've done my best to use my cultists in your big game but if certain people are incommunicado for much of the day I just can't use them..
And that has very little to do with stupidity.
Not at all. Wolves are wolves. There are few wolves. There are many villagers. Villagers have only the power to vote (and any trait they may possess). Wolves have the hunt to accompany their vote. If your attempt is to eliminate the cultist role as it currently exists, then GM a game with no cultists and see how it works. No one knows better what you have in mind than yourself.
I don't think they should be wolves, though.
My idea would have them more akin to the evil villager EURO speaks about. Can depend on other roles, but can also have the ability to win on their own, just like villagers can win without roles alive.
So who's gonna host the next Lite / Meso?
I'm guessing given the numbers that Meso I will be wrapped up in another three days or maybe earlier given the caliber of strategery.
I'm guessing given the numbers that Meso I will be wrapped up in another three days or maybe earlier given the caliber of strategery.