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To be honest I am still uncertain how I came across this thread. I'm just glad that I did.
I don't drink beer :O
I don't drink beer :O
Whiskey? Gin? Grain alcohol? That plum drink that Split used to be on about?
Don't trust a man that doesn't drink, for he doesn't trust himself. ~Hemingway.
Thanks for hosting Ciryandor, though the no vote change rule killed the game. A shame I didn't live another day, because this post from EURO (together with e.g. his previous wolf claim PM and the PM I quote below) convinced me he was a wolf; though couldn't really mention it last night in case I was wrong and EURO was plotter/hesitant.
Also on second thought I should have posted my JL conversation with aedan, since I knew k-59 was scanned so he must have been in contact with aedan. Oh well; you cannot expect to think clear 1 AM in the night.
The general planning thread is here.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/werewolf-general-planning-thread.396909/
Also something you might not be aware of, but every PM you had in your PM box when the migration took place---i.e. every PM from I5's game---were made their own conversations; every single PM. And replies to a PM was made a separate conversation to the PM. Though if you deleted those PMs in question before the migration they wouldn't show up in your PM box.
Also on second thought I should have posted my JL conversation with aedan, since I knew k-59 was scanned so he must have been in contact with aedan. Oh well; you cannot expect to think clear 1 AM in the night.
From the standpoint of the village that was the wrong action to do. k-59 and I couldn't both be villagers and with fake outings this late one of us had to be a wolf. Since there were no plotters/hesitants left it didn't matter, but had there been making a TIE was in the village's best interest and wouldn't harm it ta all.
That wouldn't have helped much, since all seasoned players would not use hesitant/plotter early, but save it for the late game; in a game with a no vote change rule plotters/hesitants were bound to get hunted as soon as they used their trait unless the pack had a really good seer suspect.
Funny thing is that had you seen my in post I would have taken one of the wolf spots, since I would have been player number 10.
Scanning villagers and talking with me.
You did alot, but it is not true that nobody else did anything.
In the general planning thread I made a guide on how to make very convincing fake conversation numbers. If you follow my guide it is pretty much impossible to detect that it is fake numbers.
The general planning thread is here.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/werewolf-general-planning-thread.396909/
The three Aziz posts you quote in the third last PM which is stamped Monday at 3:35, isn't necessarily rule breaking. His ghost telling in thread was, but he is allowed to pass on all information he has to his sub. So he is allowed to pass on the it is PMs from a previous game and who received those PMs. Telling Aziz you had to be a sock probably was a bit much, but that harmed the goodie side more than it helped. So I don't see him passing information on to Aziz, which he had learned after he became a ghost.
Ciryandor do you actually care about that nick or not, because it is easier to write, but I won't if you take offence of it.
Where did he do that?
Posting in the thread indeed was wrong.
That is why I proposed in the thread back then, that he PMed a few veteran players who weren't in the game---e.g. johho---and presented them with the evidence. If they thought it convincing too he should either have passed it on to jacob or posted it in the thread for discussion like what SPLIT did with pj's first sock. I would prefer the present the case in the thread route, but I am not sure if that actually is allowed according to the forum rules.
You would be surprised how many times it has happened in the help sub forum that somebody finds out he has a much older account with games registered on. What most often happened is them forgetting it existed or forgetting the password and losing access to all recovery options. So the sock claim isn't as impossible as you make it, but it is still far fetched and I don't think you are a sock. I also seem to remember you posting in OT.
Again telling his sub who received that PM isn't violating the rules, so there was no ground for auto lynching Aziz.
You are completely sure you weren't in a spy PM chain where those PMs were posted?; in e.g. I5's game?
Also something you might not be aware of, but every PM you had in your PM box when the migration took place---i.e. every PM from I5's game---were made their own conversations; every single PM. And replies to a PM was made a separate conversation to the PM. Though if you deleted those PMs in question before the migration they wouldn't show up in your PM box.
Congrats to the winners and thanks to the GM. The ghosts breaking rules was again out of hand which is a shame. I don't understand why people who know the rules keep breaking them.
And yes, very promising new players around. That's always nice.
And yes, very promising new players around. That's always nice.
I don't mind much about my nick being shortened.
As for vote change limiting, I'd probably make it a global counter, that everyone has x number of changes based on player count, and some players have Plotter and some have a trait which gives a bonus number of vote changes. It will limit vote-change shenanigans, but force people to think about where they're truly throwing their votes.
As for vote change limiting, I'd probably make it a global counter, that everyone has x number of changes based on player count, and some players have Plotter and some have a trait which gives a bonus number of vote changes. It will limit vote-change shenanigans, but force people to think about where they're truly throwing their votes.
@son of liberty, you analphabetic clown, read the rules:
It's one thing to give your sub info before you leave the game, it's another thing to contact her after you have left with game crucial info.
To be honest, I was dumbfounded by your apparent stupidity. Your logical deduction after seeing the PMs was that delta was a sock puppet? Not that a packmate supplied him the PMs (which is what actually happened)? AND, you give your sub the name of the person whose PMs those were. I was extremely lucky that no one apparently caught that, but I was so obviously a packmate of delta if anyone had read beyond al-aziz' ramblings of sock puppets, etc. This was blatant and game breaking ghost breaking by son of liberty.
Then there are these quotes IN THE THREAD ITSELF:
I have never seen such blatant, obvious, game interfering ghost rule breaking. With this in mind, I'd like @son of liberty and everyone else to look at rule 3a:
I hereby announce that son of liberty is PERMANENTLY banned from any future game I will GM, and I urge everyone else to follow suit.
It's one thing to give your sub info before you leave the game, it's another thing to contact her after you have left with game crucial info.
To be honest, I was dumbfounded by your apparent stupidity. Your logical deduction after seeing the PMs was that delta was a sock puppet? Not that a packmate supplied him the PMs (which is what actually happened)? AND, you give your sub the name of the person whose PMs those were. I was extremely lucky that no one apparently caught that, but I was so obviously a packmate of delta if anyone had read beyond al-aziz' ramblings of sock puppets, etc. This was blatant and game breaking ghost breaking by son of liberty.
Then there are these quotes IN THE THREAD ITSELF:
(the last one was amended to only "I am not" later, but this was the original post.)
I have never seen such blatant, obvious, game interfering ghost rule breaking. With this in mind, I'd like @son of liberty and everyone else to look at rule 3a:
I hereby announce that son of liberty is PERMANENTLY banned from any future game I will GM, and I urge everyone else to follow suit.
As you don't know who your sub is before you are subbed out, you will always be giving your sub information after you have left the game. But it should be done instantly; e.g. 17 hours count as instantly here since people could be sleeping and then at work. As long as it happens within about a day---perhaps 30 hours---of the subbing I think the passing on information can be considered happening 'instantly'.
You of course isn't allowed to pass on information you obtained after you subbed out, but as far as I have seen that hasn't happened. Who were the original recipients of those PMs isn't something SoL learned after he subbed out, but something he knew for weeks already.
Yeah it being a sock probably was the most unlikely case.
Those three posts on the other hand are blatant ghost rule violations; though he doesn't reveal really sensitive information like the recipients of the original PMs; it is Aziz who reveals that and that is fully within the rules.
So I won't ban him permanently, but propose a ban of a few games.
Instantly, as within say 48 hours of being subbed given timezones and what not, (gives plenetly of time for info to sub, from sub back to player and back to sub again), I don't see any problem with the subbed player giving info to the player replacing them. No one should be just Pming a player that was subbed out with information that they don't want shared to the new person. Had SoL just pmed that information to his replacement with the GM on copy, I see it as reasonable. Had SoL requested as sub, not been given a sub yet and he posted what he did, that would also be reasonable. When you request a sub, your still playing until that replacement shows up.
After 48 hours, it really should go though the GM that should keep in mind when the player learned of the info. Pms from the last game a person played in like this case should be fine to have a player that was subbed pass on. That information existed before the player was subbed out.
His posts in the thread however, I agree are not within reasonable actions of a ghost. He should never have posted in the thread that the PMs were forged. As there is no official rule on it, he should have passed it on to the GM to tell his replacement they were forged and list names, and then let the GM decide what, if anything his replacement gets out of that message.
SoL wasn't sleeping when he sent me his first PM, correct? Yes.
He sent the PM 17 hours after the announcement of his sub, correct? Yes.
He had the chance to send all relevant information to al-Aziz before sending me the PM, correct? Yes.
He used information from the PM conversation to relay information to al-Aziz, correct? Yes.
Now I can only assume that he sent more than just 1 message to al-Aziz - At least one before the conversation with me, which is perfectly fine, and at least one afterwards, which is not ok. If that proves to be the case, I support the motion to permaban.
And 30 hours? Seriously? More than a voting day passes since you subbed out and you're still influencing the game? How is this any different from 2 people playing the same villager/wolf? As long as it is less than 24 hours it should be ok, but not more.
I'll take it!
Keep in mind people are not in the same timezone. So if someone is subbed in, they need to send a PM to ask for information, that person need to reply and so on. Giving it a deadline of 48 hours ensures no matter how bad the case is, there is enough time for a round of Sub to Org, Org to Sub, Sub back to Org for clafication one last pm from Org to Sub.
Don't forget, most people when they ask for Sub don't have time to keep playing, making them even less likely to be able to pass off information in short timeframe.
24 hours is plenty time. If it's 48 hours I can sub-out before the votes are counted while placing my vote. Get a sub shortly the next day and then my sub can get a sub of itss own and have it announced within my original 48 hours deadline. Then all 3 of us can sit around and collect information which we can freely pass onto each other. 3 people - 1 character. That sounds so horribly stupid.
And this is coming from Torn!
Based off of what Delta said it sounds like SoL PMed Delta after being subbed out try to force delta to publicly say he had forged the PMs (Which is a big enough ghost violation by it self) and then give Aziz the results of this conversation. It might not have been game breaking info that was transmitted after the sub but it was still wrong.