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Also, the village not reading the fine print of the rules (Envy's thief killing the GA and the village not predicting that their was a second protection on me), didn't help things.
Though I still don't know the exact full set-up, I believe from what has been revealed so far shows a pretty unbalanced game. A single baddie pack having both a PL and a cloak of invisibility is pretty ridiculous, makes lynching them an incredible chore. Another baddie being brutal is another baddie the village will suffer to lynch. The last member of the baddie pack also having thief increases the killing power of the baddies, and could even get another useful trait. And I'm not even mentioning the other minor traits they had in addition.
And that's before we even get to this game's sorcerer. Before I died I didn't even realize we were using a highly unusual version of the sorcerer. Being able to scan for wolves makes them much more able to get in contact and be useful. Combined with the ability to cancel the lynch on one player, the village had another major obstacle thrown in its way preventing the lynching of baddies. Even worse, the PL could also claim this version of sorcerer and protect another baddie, which could've meant things like two baddies being protected in one day, or one baddie being protected for three days in a row. It's ridiculous.
The goodie side in comparison didn't really start with anything to compensate, other than perhaps the seer being blessed. Councils are notorious deathtraps, so putting the priest on there was a long term detriment to the goodies. A cursed also on there only further gave an unbalanced factor for the wolves. The only plus side for the village in regards to the council was that it basically gave us Agatha for free, who was the least dangerous baddie to try and lynch anyways. Me being scanned night 0 was a death sentence, and combined with the rest of the major JL being on the council, meant the JL was long term screwed right out the gate, even if we did form day 1.
Not that long term mattered this game, since the baddies had basically won by day 3.
Aside from that, the goodies had, apparently, only one protector, unless there's a doctor I don't know about. A hunter, thief, and VH does give the village some killing power, plus the council's shot, but half of those got wasted by night 1, with the thief kill misused to kill the GA, and the hunter dying night 1. Though I'm not sure why Sleepy's VH shot wasn't used last night, the day when the Dedonus lynch failed a second time. The JL doubted his claim, but having him shoot a suspect would be a good test of it, and considering the JL knew the number of baddies left, and had a decent list of unlikely baddies (MAW, wagon, Deathbywombat, Envy/whomeversubbedhimout), a shot had a pretty good chance of hitting a baddie, and I know Deathbywombat was particularly suspicious of Avernite. Probably wouldn't have saved the game, but would've made the baddies pay a bit more for their win.
And the thing is that killing power was vital for the village to have a chance against the baddies when they had so many ways to mess with the lynch. Except the village had no way of knowing that (except the sorc thing, but pretty much no one goodie realized that we were playing with a nonstandard sorc). In hindsight, the JL should've lynched Agatha (the only baddie we could lynch without issue), and saved the shot for more difficult to lynch baddies, but we didn't know that at the time. Our concern was killing Agatha without leaking my identity, and that of the council, to the baddies (having figured Agatha was probably sorc). This wasn't the case, but there was a reason to avoid Agatha being outed, which would've put the sorc in contact with the pack (though Avernite did anyways since sorc this game could scan for wolves as well as cultists).
As for me, I kind of phoned in the game once I found out I'd been scanned by the council night 0. I didn't have much confidence in silencing Agatha before my name got out. As it was we were really obvious about it, all three JL members just voting Agatha day 1. Once Agatha turned up wolf, I knew there'd never been a chance, and I was probably getting hunted the next night. I generally believed there was only one pack, from the size of the game and only one pack aligned baddie being on the council.
Though in a fit of paranoia right before I died I passed along to the rest of the JL sans Wagonlitz that I strongly suspected he'd been turned on the no hunt night, and to put him under scrutiny if I died and turned up without being formerly blessed. Obviously unnecessary as it turned out.
And that's before we even get to this game's sorcerer. Before I died I didn't even realize we were using a highly unusual version of the sorcerer. Being able to scan for wolves makes them much more able to get in contact and be useful. Combined with the ability to cancel the lynch on one player, the village had another major obstacle thrown in its way preventing the lynching of baddies. Even worse, the PL could also claim this version of sorcerer and protect another baddie, which could've meant things like two baddies being protected in one day, or one baddie being protected for three days in a row. It's ridiculous.
The goodie side in comparison didn't really start with anything to compensate, other than perhaps the seer being blessed. Councils are notorious deathtraps, so putting the priest on there was a long term detriment to the goodies. A cursed also on there only further gave an unbalanced factor for the wolves. The only plus side for the village in regards to the council was that it basically gave us Agatha for free, who was the least dangerous baddie to try and lynch anyways. Me being scanned night 0 was a death sentence, and combined with the rest of the major JL being on the council, meant the JL was long term screwed right out the gate, even if we did form day 1.
Not that long term mattered this game, since the baddies had basically won by day 3.
Aside from that, the goodies had, apparently, only one protector, unless there's a doctor I don't know about. A hunter, thief, and VH does give the village some killing power, plus the council's shot, but half of those got wasted by night 1, with the thief kill misused to kill the GA, and the hunter dying night 1. Though I'm not sure why Sleepy's VH shot wasn't used last night, the day when the Dedonus lynch failed a second time. The JL doubted his claim, but having him shoot a suspect would be a good test of it, and considering the JL knew the number of baddies left, and had a decent list of unlikely baddies (MAW, wagon, Deathbywombat, Envy/whomeversubbedhimout), a shot had a pretty good chance of hitting a baddie, and I know Deathbywombat was particularly suspicious of Avernite. Probably wouldn't have saved the game, but would've made the baddies pay a bit more for their win.
And the thing is that killing power was vital for the village to have a chance against the baddies when they had so many ways to mess with the lynch. Except the village had no way of knowing that (except the sorc thing, but pretty much no one goodie realized that we were playing with a nonstandard sorc). In hindsight, the JL should've lynched Agatha (the only baddie we could lynch without issue), and saved the shot for more difficult to lynch baddies, but we didn't know that at the time. Our concern was killing Agatha without leaking my identity, and that of the council, to the baddies (having figured Agatha was probably sorc). This wasn't the case, but there was a reason to avoid Agatha being outed, which would've put the sorc in contact with the pack (though Avernite did anyways since sorc this game could scan for wolves as well as cultists).
As for me, I kind of phoned in the game once I found out I'd been scanned by the council night 0. I didn't have much confidence in silencing Agatha before my name got out. As it was we were really obvious about it, all three JL members just voting Agatha day 1. Once Agatha turned up wolf, I knew there'd never been a chance, and I was probably getting hunted the next night. I generally believed there was only one pack, from the size of the game and only one pack aligned baddie being on the council.
Though in a fit of paranoia right before I died I passed along to the rest of the JL sans Wagonlitz that I strongly suspected he'd been turned on the no hunt night, and to put him under scrutiny if I died and turned up without being formerly blessed. Obviously unnecessary as it turned out.
But as Arkasas has already stated, we need to remember that this is just a game. Sure, we sink a lot of time into it, but there's no reason to get ugly about a broken game. I do not envy Ironhide and Grimlock's position to repurpose what was supposed to be a 30-person big into what was essentially a slightly bigger light. Attack the setup, not the person.
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This set up is hilarious and amazing, I’m now sad I didn’t sign up at first
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New information has caused me to take back all complaints about the setup (aside from the zillion cloaks).
If anything, this game might have been goodie favored, and the baddies deserved their win (or more accurately the goodies forfeited their win).
If anything, this game might have been goodie favored, and the baddies deserved their win (or more accurately the goodies forfeited their win).
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Sure, but I don't see anyone attacking the GMs, aside from issues regarding the setup.
Certainly this is nothing compared to the scorn and derision Dadarian, Panzer, and Brovahkiin faced for their most controversial games back in the day (which wasn't justified then either).
That was more pointed to the reactions from after the last update. But just something to keep in mind.
I may've been a bit grumpy about the sorceror not being like a cloak, despite elsewise looking exactly like a cloak, thus resulting in no mass-tie yesterday. But eh, sorc was OP anyway, just would've liked it being spelled out slightly better.
For that matter, anyone who wants to keep the cloak (i.e. not me), maybe the version of 'not lynched but no lynchee at all' may be the better also for the cloak, to prevent tie shenanigans.
For that matter, anyone who wants to keep the cloak (i.e. not me), maybe the version of 'not lynched but no lynchee at all' may be the better also for the cloak, to prevent tie shenanigans.
Well I had fun made mistakes, as always, but I had fun anyway! It had been a while since I had been in a pack.
Thank you Ironhide and Grilock!
made mistakes, as always, but I had fun anyway! It had been a while since I had been in a pack. Thank you Ironhide and Grilock!
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Yeah, I'm certainly in no place to complain about setups, considering my, um, more experimental games. Not terrible for a first time effort, grimlock, and thanks for hosting, both of you!
It also was that you never reachd out to aedan. The goodie behaviour would be to reach out to him immediatley and pass on anything you knew. Which was exactly what i did.
From what I understood then Culann also reached out to aedan.
You missed some parts.
PL in this game can claim both thief and hunter. So what you should have done was to use thief and hunter on the first two days. That's an extra kill two nights in a row. Have Agatha rob somebody on the first night too. Then you have three extra kills at the start of day 2.
And you have used your killing traits and hence are ready for if you get run up and need to use cloak and later brutal. And you won't have to choose between killing somebody and using sorc protect.
A goodie never should use robber/thief in blind. It's by far most likely to hit another goodie.
What was that new information?
Also, I hope neither of IG or Grimlock took my criticism of the setup as attacking them.
I'm well aware of how easy it is to make an unbalanced setup. And that it's very hard to balance a very small game.
I've hosted my share of unbalanced bigs.
