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Orinsul

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Compared to those same ports being controlled by warlords in the collapse of the caliphate, or by the rampaging Turks who were invading at the time and not yet where anyone was sure who's side they were on.

Christians taking over some of the ports was a footnote to urban folk even at the time. And then actually talking about moslem history, they barely worth mentioning at all, the big events of that century in Moslem history was the Turks, the Crusades were important to Christians, to Moslem's they're as minor a background event in the story of the Turks as the warlords were in the story of the Crusades to us.
Even to 'european' history, the crusades weren't as important in the 18th century as they are now. In Islamic history they were barely mentioned at all and if they were it was never as the main story but background detail.

They're only important now to 'world history' because it takes Victorian English history as it's foundation, which made the crusades really important in the 19th century for reasons which made sense at the time.
 

Gatkramp

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Compared to those same ports being controlled by warlords in the collapse of the caliphate, or by the rampaging Turks who were invading at the time and not yet where anyone was sure who's side they were on.

Christians taking over some of the ports was a footnote to urban folk even at the time. And then actually talking about moslem history, they barely worth mentioning at all, the big events of that century in Moslem history was the Turks, the Crusades were important to Christians, to Moslem's they're as minor a background event in the story of the Turks as the warlords were in the story of the Crusades to us.
Even to 'european' history, the crusades weren't as important in the 18th century as they are now. In Islamic history they were barely mentioned at all and if they were it was never as the main story but background detail.

They're only important now to 'world history' because it takes Victorian English history as it's foundation, which made the crusades really important in the 19th century for reasons which made sense at the time.

Pretty much exactly what is taught at university, and corroborated by most scholars, when it comes to the Crusades. While they may have been important to Muslims in the Holy Land at the time, it was all but forgotten just over a century later. While the west had histories of it over the centuries, though nowhere near as significant as over the last few centuries, the Muslim world didn't have any significant writings, on the period, between the crusades and the nineteenth century.

The Muslim narrative, in its modern context, is a very new one. It certainly isn't the way it was remembered over the centuries, by the few Islamic scholars that even knew of the events. Salah ad-Din wasn't popularised by the Islamic world, but rather by western scholars who were then the basis for the narrative passed on to the Muslims who were going through a period of nationalism following their subjugation by the Western imperial powers. Where Salah ad-Din was remembered, in the Islamic world, he wasn't remembered for his victory over the Crusaders, but rather for his efforts to unite the Islamic world and his leadership in that context.

This isn't an argument made to downplay the intellect or historical competency of the Islamic world, but rather a reflection of just how little an impact the Crusades actually had on Muslim society. The Crusades were no great threat to Islam, nor were the Crusader states particularly long-lasting or far-reaching. The multitude of other, more important, event in Islamic history were rightfully emphasised over the Crusades because the Crusades played a very minor part in the development of Islamic culture and society—up until recently anyway.

Unfortunately, we have seen the modern perception of the crusades become clouded by nationalism and biases that just weren't relevant at the time of the Crusades. The various groups, whether Muslim, atheist, pacifist or others, want to use the Crusades to demonstrate something that it was never meant to demonstrate. They seek motivations and interpretations that simply don't make sense or place the events into a historical context. While there is still some debate about the specific causes behind the crusades, the monetary greed and colonisation (in its modern context) argument has been overwhelmingly rejected by most scholars.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Compared to those same ports being controlled by warlords in the collapse of the caliphate, or by the rampaging Turks who were invading at the time and not yet where anyone was sure who's side they were on.

"Rampaging Turks"? Not sure who you are referring to. Turks and/or Turkish regiments had been ruling the area for quite some time.

Christians taking over some of the ports was a footnote to urban folk even at the time.

Oh, it was quite a big deal. Very disruptive and transformative of livelihoods and life. Much more than anything going on in the hinterlands.

And then actually talking about moslem history, they barely worth mentioning at all, the big events of that century in Moslem history was the Turks, the Crusades were important to Christians, to Moslem's they're as minor a background event in the story of the Turks as the warlords were in the story of the Crusades to us.

Ah, I take it you're actually not familiar with Arab chronicles? Never mind.

P.S. - Not sure what "us" you are referring to. I am pretty sure it was pretty irrelevant for New Zealand.
 

Yakman

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The Fourth Crusade was everything except defending.
The Fourth Crusade is one of the highpoints of Western Civilization. :nods:
 

Fishman786

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The Fourth Crusade is one of the highpoints of Western Civilization. :nods:
Yeah, yeah, Fire Unionist, we all know your opinion of Byzantiu- wait, Yakman?! Dear lord they're multiplying!
 

Herbert West

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Aamin Malouf (sic?) has a good book called "The Crusades Through Arab Eyes", which I can heartily recommend to anyone interested in the subject.
 

Yakman

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Aamin Malouf (sic?) has a good book called "The Crusades Through Arab Eyes", which I can heartily recommend to anyone interested in the subject.
yes, which is quite good.

and kinda makes the point that the crusades were a pretty big thing in the Arab world at the time, which some posters seem to be arguing against...
 

GaiusC

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Obviously, Crusaders invading lands and settling down for decades is worthy of notice.

I think the thing is, they were an afterthought quite soon after they were over, because many Muslims had other troubles to deal with. Those pesky Mongols, to begin with.
 

Yakman

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Obviously, Crusaders invading lands and settling down for decades is worthy of notice.

I think the thing is, they were an afterthought quite soon after they were over, because many Muslims had other troubles to deal with. Those pesky Mongols, to begin with.

Well, yeah, when your civilization comes crashing down after a hundred thousand barbarian horsemen destroy every single thing that they can find, murder the central figure of your culture, and your land is so decimated that it takes centuries to recover, then yes, those steel clad religious psychopaths from across the seas who ALMOST destroyed your various empires don't matter so much.

But the Crusades were central in laying the ground work for what was to come: ruining Byzantium, bringing the Turks to the fore, destabilizing Egypt and Syria, creating new trade routes, etc., that it's hard to say that they were either unimportant or unnoticed by the larger Moslem world.
 

Gatkramp

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The Fourth Crusade was everything except defending.

Exactly, the Fourth Crusade epitomises the excesses of the Crusades. But if you actually look at it, and the events behind it, you will find that the vast majority of the Crusaders did not set out to conquer areas of Croatia or establish the Latin Empire. It was shortages in funds (and a pitiful turnout Crusaders), the influence of the Venetians (who had a feud with the new ruler of the Byzantine Empire), and the lobbying of Alexios IV (the son of the deposed emperor and a potential powerful ally in further Crusader campaigns), that forced them to redirect to Zara and Constantinople. For this they were excommunicated and widely condemned throughout the Christian world.

Many Crusaders went straight to the holy land, rather than joining with the main Crusader army, while many more deserted from the main army and redirected themselves to the Holy Land. Some estimates put more than half of the Crusaders as not having joined or stayed with the primary Crusader army for their diversions. Despite their pilgrimage being declared finished in Constantinople, against the wishes of the Pope, many carried onto the Holy Land in full acknowledgement of the failure of the Fourth Crusade.

The fact that the Fourth Crusade was so shocking and controversial to both the Crusaders and western society should highlight just how irregular those excesses truly were. I'm not arguing that the Crusades was caused entirely by a defensive mindset, as that is clearly not the case. I'm just saying that the money argument is extremely weak, as the Crusades would have done more to hinder trade to the west than it ever did to help it. Trying to seize control of trading routes is just a weak argument for the cause of the Crusades. The religious aspect is simply the only one that makes any sense whatsoever.
 

Gatkramp

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Since people don't believe me and Orinsul, I guess it's time I start posting the thoughts of actual historians of the Crusades. Harder to make arguments against people that have dedicated a lifetime to this issue. Hopefully people will stop spouting the propaganda their families and governments have been trying to shove down their throats.

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/06/inventing-the-crusades
Thomas F Madden said:
INVENTING THE CRUSADES
by Thomas F. Madden
June 2009

The Crusades, Christianity, and Islam
by Jonathan Riley-Smith
Columbia University Press, 136 pages, $24.50

Within a month of the attacks of September 11, 2001, former president Bill Clinton gave a speech to the students of Georgetown University. As the world tried to make sense of the senseless, Clinton offered his own explanation: “Those of us who come from various European lineages are not blameless,” he declared. “Indeed, in the First Crusade, when the Christian soldiers took Jerusalem, they first burned a synagogue with three hundred Jews in it, and proceeded to kill every woman and child who was Muslim on the Temple Mount. The contemporaneous descriptions of the event describe soldiers walking on the Temple Mount, a holy place to Christians, with blood running up to their knees.

“I can tell you that that story is still being told today in the Middle East, and we are still paying for it,” he concluded, and there is good reason to believe he was right. Osama bin Laden and other Islamists regularly refer to Americans as “Crusaders.” Indeed, bin Laden directed his fatwa authorizing the September 11 attacks against the “Crusaders and Jews.” He later preached that “for the first time the Crusaders have managed to achieve their historic ambitions and dreams against our Islamic umma , gaining control over Islamic holy places and Holy Sanctuaries . . . . Their defeat in Iraq will mean defeat in all their wars and a beginning of the receding of their Zionist“Crusader tide against us.”

Most people in the West do not believe that they have been prosecuting a continuous Crusade against Islam since the Middle Ages. But most do believe that the Crusades started the problems that plague and endanger us today. Westerners in general (and Catholics in particular) find the Crusades a deeply embarrassing episode in their history. As the Ridley Scott movie Kingdom of Heaven graphically proclaimed, the Crusades were unprovoked campaigns of intolerance preached by deranged churchmen and fought by religious zealots against a sophisticated and peaceful Muslim world. According to the Hollywood version, the blind violence of the Crusades gave birth to jihad, as the Muslims fought to defend themselves and their world. And for what? The city of Jerusalem, which was both “nothing and everything,” a place filled with religion that “drives men mad.”

On September 11, 2001, there were only a few professional historians of the Crusades in America. I was the one who was not retired. As a result, my phone began ringing and didn’t stop for years. In the hundreds of interviews I have given since that terrible day, the most common question has been, “How did the Crusades lead to the terrorist attacks against the West today?” I always answered: “They did not. The Crusades were a medieval phenomenon with no connection to modern Islamist terrorism.”

That answer has never gone over well. It seems counterintuitive. If the West sent Crusaders to attack Muslims throughout the Middle Ages, haven’t they a right to be upset? If the Crusades spawned anti-Western jihads, isn’t it reasonable to see them as the root cause of the current jihads? The answer is no, but to understand it requires more than the scant minutes journalists are usually willing to spare. It requires a grasp not only of the Crusades but of the ways those wars have been exploited and distorted for modern agendas.

That answer is now contained in a book, The Crusades, Christianity, and Islam, written by the most distinguished historian of the Crusades, the Cambridge University scholar Jonathan Riley-Smith. A transcription of the Bampton Lectures he delivered in October 2007 at Columbia University, it is a thin book, brimming with insights, approachable by anyone interested in the subject.

It is generally thought that Christians attacked Muslims without provocation to seize their lands and forcibly convert them. The Crusaders were Europe’s lacklands and ne’er-do-wells, who marched against the infidels out of blind zealotry and a desire for booty and land. As such, the Crusades betrayed Christianity itself. They transformed “turn the other cheek” into “kill them all; God will know his own.”

Every word of this is wrong. Historians of the Crusades have long known that it is wrong, but they find it extraordinarily difficult to be heard across a chasm of entrenched preconceptions. For on the other side is, as Riley-Smith puts it “nearly everyone else, from leading churchmen and scholars in other fields to the general public.” There is the great Sir Steven Runciman, whose three-volume History of the Crusades is still a brisk seller for Cambridge University Press a half century after its release. It was Runciman who called the Crusades “a long act of intolerance in the name of God, which is a sin against the Holy Ghost.” The pity of it is that Runciman and the other popular writers simply write better stories than the professional historians.

So we continue to write our scholarly books and articles, learning more and more about the Crusades but scarcely able to be heard. And when we are heard, we are dismissed as daft. I once asked Riley-Smith if he believed popular perceptions of the Crusades would ever be changed by modern scholarship. “I’ve just about given up hope,” he answered. In his new book he notes that in the last thirty years historians have begun to reject “the long-held belief that it [the Crusade movement] was defined solely by its theaters of operation in the Levant and its hostility toward Islam”with the consequence that in their eyes the Muslims move slightly off center stage”and many of them have begun to face up to the ideas and motivation of the Crusaders. The more they do so the more they find themselves contra mundum or, at least, contra mundum Christianum .”

One of the most profound misconceptions about the Crusades is that they represented a perversion of a religion whose founder preached meekness, love of enemies, and nonresistance. Riley-Smith reminds his reader that on the matter of violence Christ was not as clear as pacifists like to think. He praised the faith of the Roman centurion but did not condemn his profession. At the Last Supper he told his disciples, “Let him who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors. ”

St. Paul said of secular authorities, “He does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” Several centuries later, St. Augustine articulated a Christian approach to just war, one in which legitimate authorities could use violence to halt or avert a greater evil. It must be a defensive war, in reaction to an act of aggression. For Christians, therefore, violence was ethically neutral, since it could be employed either for evil or against it. As Riley-Smith notes, the concept that violence is intrinsically evil belongs solely to the modern world. It is not Christian.


All the Crusades met the criteria of just wars. They came about in reaction attacks against Christians or their Church. The First Crusade was called in 1095 in response to the recent Turkish conquest of Christian Asia Minor, as well as the much earlier Arab conquest of the Christian-held Holy Land. The second was called in response to the Muslim conquest of Edessa in 1144. The third was called in response to the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem and most other Christian lands in the Levant in 1187.

In each case, the faithful went to war to defend Christians, to punish the attackers, and to right terrible wrongs. As Riley-Smith has written elsewhere, crusading was seen as an act of love”specifically the love of God and the love of neighbor. By pushing back Muslim aggression and restoring Eastern Christianity, the Crusaders were”at great peril to themselves”imitating the Good Samaritan. Or, as Innocent II told the Knights Templar, “You carry out in deeds the words of the gospel, ‘Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.’”

But the Crusades were not just wars. They were holy wars, and that is what made them different from what came before. They were made holy not by their target but by the Crusaders’ sacrifice. The Crusade was a pilgrimage and thereby an act of penance. When Urban II called the First Crusade in 1095, he created a model that would be followed for centuries. Crusaders who undertook that burden with right intention and after confessing their sins would receive a plenary indulgence. The indulgence was a recognition that they undertook these sacrifices for Christ, who was crucified again in the tribulations of his people.

And the sacrifices were extraordinary. As Riley-Smith writes in this book and his earlier The First *Crusaders , the cost of crusading was staggering. Without financial assistance, only the wealthy could afford to embark on a Crusade. Many noble families impoverished themselves by crusading.

Historians have long known that the image of the Crusader as an adventurer seeking his fortune is exactly backward. The vast majority of Crusaders returned home as soon as they had fulfilled their vow. What little booty they could acquire was more than spent on the journey itself. One is hard pressed to name a single returning Crusader who broke even, let alone made a profit on the journey. And those who returned were the lucky ones. As Riley-Smith explains, recent studies show that around one-third of knights and nobility died on crusade. The death rates for lower classes were even higher.

One can never understand the Crusades without understanding their penitential character. It was the indulgence that led thousands of men to take on a burden that would certainly cost them dearly. The secular nobility of medieval Europe was a warrior aristocracy. They made their living by the sword. We know from their wills and charters that they were deeply aware of their own sinfulness and anxious over the state of their souls. A Crusade provided a way for them to serve God and to do penance for their sins. It allowed them to use their weapons as a means of their salvation rather than of their damnation.

Of course it was difficult, but that is what penance is supposed to be. As Urban and later Crusade preachers reminded them, Christ Himself had said, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” As one Crusade preacher wrote, “Those who take the cross deny, that is to say renounce, themselves by exposing themselves to mortal danger, leaving behind their loved ones, using up their goods, carrying their cross, so that afterward they may be carried to heaven by the cross.” The Crusader sewed a cloth cross to his garment to signify his penitential burden and his hope.

Take away penitence and the Crusades cannot be explained.
Yet in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries Protestants and then Enlightenment thinkers rejected the idea of temporal penalties due to sin”along with indulgences, purgatory, and the papacy. How then did they explain the Crusades? Why else would thousands of men march thousands of miles deep into enemy territory, if not for something precious? The first explanation was that they were fooled by the Antichrist: The Catholic Church had convinced the simple that their salvation lay in fighting its battles. Later, with the advent of liberalism, critics assumed that the Crusaders must have had economic motives. They were seeking wealth and simply used religion as a cover for their worldly desires.

In the nineteenth century, the memory of the Crusades became hopelessly entangled with contemporary European imperialism. Riley-Smith tells the fascinating story of Archbishop Charles-Martial Allemand-Lavigerie of Algiers, the founder of the missionary orders of the White Fathers and White Sisters, who worked diligently to establish a new military order resembling the Knights Templar, Teutonic Knights, and the Knights Hospitaller of the Middle Ages. His new order was to be sent to Africa, where it would protect missionaries, fight against the slave trade, and support the progress of French civilization in the continent.

Drawing on money from antislavery societies, Lavigerie purchased lands on the edge of the Saharan Desert to use as a mother house for a new order, L’Institut Religieux et Militaire des Frères Armés du Sahara. The order attracted hundreds of men from all social classes, and in 1891 the first brothers received their white habits emblazoned with red crosses. The dust cover of Riley-Smith’s book is itself a wonderful picture of these brothers at their African home. With palm trees behind them, they look proudly into the camera, each wearing a cross and some holding rifles.

The Institut des Fréres Armés lasted scarcely more than a year before it was scrapped and its founder died, but other attempts to found a military order were made in the nineteenth century, even in Protestant England. All wove together the contrasting threads of Romanticism, imperialism, and the medieval Crusades.

President Clinton is not alone in thinking that the Muslim world is still brooding over the crimes of the Crusaders. It is commonly thought”even by Muslims”that the effects and memory of that trauma have been with the Islamic world since it was first inflicted in the eleventh century. As Riley-Smith explains, however, the Muslim memory of the Crusades is of very recent vintage. Carole Hillenbrand first uncovered this fact in her groundbreaking book The Crusades: Islamic Perspectives . The truth is that medieval Muslims came to realize that the Crusades were religious but had little interest in them. When, in 1291, Muslim armies removed the last vestiges of the Crusader Kingdom from Palestine, the Crusades largely dropped out of Muslim memory.

In Europe, however, the Crusades were a well-remembered formative episode. Europeans, who had bound the Crusades to imperialism, brought the story to the Middle East during the nineteenth century and reintroduced it to the Muslims. Stripping the Crusades of their original purpose, they portrayed the Crusades as Europe’s first colonial venture”the first attempt of the West to bring civilization to the backward Muslim East.

Riley-Smith describes the profound effect that Sir Walter Scott’s novel The Talisman had on European and therefore Middle Eastern opinion of the Crusades. Crusaders such as Richard the Lionhearted were portrayed as boorish, brutal, and childish, while Muslims, particularly Saladin, were tolerant and enlightened gentlemen of the nineteenth century. With the collapse of Ottoman power and the rise of Arab nationalism at the end of the nineteenth century, Muslims bound together these two strands of Crusade narrative and created a new memory in which the Crusades were only the first part of Europe’s assault on Islam”an assault that continued through the modern imperialism of European powers. Europeans reintroduced Saladin, who had been nearly forgotten in the Middle East, and Arab nationalists then cleansed him of his Kurdish ethnicity to create a new anti-Western hero. We saw the result during the run-up to the Iraq War, when Saddam Hussein portrayed himself as a new Saladin who would expel the new Crusaders.

Arab nationalists made good use of the new story of the Crusades during their struggles for independence. Their enemies, the Islamists, then took over the same tool. Osama bin Laden is only the most recent Islamist to adopt this useful myth to characterize the actions of the West as a continual Crusade against Islam.

That is the Crusades’ only connection with modern Islamist terrorism. And yet, so ingrained is this notion that the Crusades began the modern European assault on Islam that many moderate Muslims still believe it. Riley-Smith recounts : “I recently refused to take part in a television series, produced by an intelligent and well-educated Egyptian woman, for whom a continuing Western crusade was an article of faith. Having less to do with historical reality than with reactions to imperialism, the nationalist and Islamist interpretations of crusade history help many people, moderates as well as extremists, to place the exploitation they believe they have suffered in a historical context and to satisfy their feelings of both superiority and humiliation.”

In the Middle East, as in the West, we are left with the gaping chasm between myth and reality. Crusade historians sometimes try to yell across it but usually just talk to each other, while the leading churchmen, the scholars in other fields, and the general public hold to a caricature of the Crusades created by a pox of modern ideologies. If that chasm is ever to be bridged, it will be with well-written and powerful books such as this.

Thomas F. Madden is chair of the department of history at Saint Louis University. He is author of The New Concise History of the Crusades and, most recently, Empires of Trust: How Rome Built”and America Is Building”a New World.
 

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Excuse the messed up letters with Arab names. It doesn't copy across very well:

The Crusades in Arab School Textbooks
Matthias Determann
Institut für Orientalistik, University of Vienna , Austria
Published online: 21 Sep 2010.

Matthias Determann said:
There is no consistent record of the Crusades in Arab literature. They appear on the periphery of the Arab literature of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, almost disappear from the historical writings of the following ages, and then reappear in the literature and political discourses of the twentieth century. Arab perceptions of the Crusades, especially in medieval times, have been studied extensively by Emmanuel Sivan (1968) and more recently by Carole Hillenbrand (1999).
As for the medieval literature, the Crusades are of minor importance in comparison with the history of the Islamic dynasties. As Bernard Lewis (1993, pp. 116, 117) puts it:

The Muslims, unlike the Christians, did not regard the Crusades as something separate and distinctive, nor did they single out the Crusaders from the long series of infidel enemies whom from time to time they fought. The chroniclers report in detail the smallest skirmishes between Muslims and Frankish troops—but they have little to say about the internal affairs of the Frankish states in the Levant and even less about their countries of origin. [...] Yet with one or two minor exceptions, the historians of Islam made no attempt [...] to trace the invaders back to their countries of origin, or to the mighty yet invisible movement that had launched them.

Medieval Arab historians also seldom distinguished between different ethnic groups of crusaders (much as Western Christians used the name ‘Saracens’, in Latin saraceni, for all Muslim peoples). They mostly call them ‘Franks’ ( firanj/faranj or ifranj) or ‘Romans’ (ru¯m), the Arabic term for the Byzantine Greeks or Romans, already found in the Qur’an. Exceptionally, the Arab authors Ibn Naz˙¯f al-H ı ˙amawı¯ (lived in the thirteenth century) and Ibn al-Athı¯r (died in 1233) did differentiate between the resident and foreign Franks. Ibn Naz˙¯f al-H ı ˙amawı¯ called the former ‘the people from the coast’ (al-sa¯h ˙iliyyu¯n) and the latter ‘the Franks’ (al-faranj) or ‘the alien Franks’ (al-faranj al-ghuraba¯’). He stated in a report that an alliance between the Muslims and the people from the coast against the Emperor Frederick II was possible (Atrache, 1996, pp. 228– 232).

...

Very little can be said about the description of the Crusades in Arab historiography after the thirteenth century. The character of the Crusades in twelfth- and thirteenth-century chronicles was peripheral, but they were probably of even less interest in the following centuries. As Arabic literature in general stagnated under Ottoman rule, Arab historiography of the Crusades written in Arabic apparently almost disappeared.
In the nineteenth century, Arabic literature underwent a ‘renaissance’ (nahd˙a) under European influences. History, together with nearly all literature and science, adopted Western topics and methods and was influenced by Western norms, points of view and conceptualizations. This led to the re-emergence of the primarily Western topic of the Crusades in Arab historiography. Under this Western influence, the topic began generally to be termed ‘crusader campaigns’ (h˙amala¯t s˙alı¯biyya) or ‘crusader wars’ (h˙uru¯b s˙alı¯biyya, from s alı¯b ‘cross’). Besides the medieval terms of Romans and Franks, a new word ‘crusaders’ (s˙alı¯biyyu¯n, literally, ‘persons related to the cross’) now came into common use.

...

In the twentieth century, some Arab authors and politicians established links between the Crusades and modern times.

...

It was not only Nasser who was compared to Saladin (S˙ala¯h˙ al-Dı¯n), but also Saddam Hussein. Saddam, like Saladin, was born near Tikrı¯t in Iraq. According to the former’s offcial biography, the year of his birth was 1937 (although the official register of births gives 1939), precisely 800 years after the birth (1137) of the man who united many Muslims and recaptured Jerusalem from the crusaders. Because of his biographical background, the Iraqi media could easily present Saddam as the new Saladin, a new leader of all Arabs who defied imperialism and Zionism. In political speeches, he also compared Israel to the crusader states, which, after all, had not lasted long (Bengio, 1998, p. 136).
In addition, polemicists of political Islam drew other parallels between the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem and the State of Israel and between the Crusades and modern interventions or wars undertaken in the Middle East by Western countries. In recent times, leaders of the al-Qa’ida organization, among them Osama bin Laden, c Abd Alla¯h c Azza¯m, Ayman al-Z˙awa¯hirı¯ and Abu¯ Mus˙a¯b al-Zarqa¯wı¯, have spoken of the need to wage jihad against ‘Jews’ and ‘crusaders’ (quotations can be found in Kepel & Milleli, 2005).

...

All Arab textbooks analysed in this study suggest reasons for the Crusades. The books of Lebanon and Tunisia identify political, economic, social and religious reasons, while the others do not classify the reasons. Of the greatest importance are the economic motives of the crusaders, because all the textbooks consider them as reasons for the Crusades. The books describe the crusaders’ greed for the goods and treasures of the Middle East and the desire of Italian merchants to take control over its trade and ports. The Saudi Arabian, Lebanese, Egyptian and Libyan textbooks relate this greed (the Syrian and Egyptian textbooks call it istic ma¯rı¯‘imperialistic’) to the poor economic state and backwardness of Europe.
Connected with the economic motives are the wish of the Pope to extend his authority over the Byzantines and the Islamic countries and the desire of European nobles to create their own principalities in the Near East. The textbooks of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt and Tunisia put forward all these motives as reasons. Most of the books also refer to religious reasons, saying that there was an aim to take possession of the Christian holy places and to secure access to them for pilgrims. However, the books of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Palestine and Tunisia deny that these were the real reasons. For them, the religious motives were just a cover for the expansionist, economic and political intentions of the Pope and European princes. However, the Saudi Arabian and Syrian textbooks recognize ‘religious fanaticism’ (al-tac as˙s˙ub al-dı¯nı¯ (Saudi Arabia 1, p. 106) among some crusaders. The Libyan textbooks refer to a mixture of religious and political motives on the part of the Church. According to them, the Church saw in the Islamic values of justice and equality a danger which threatened its rule. Therefore, it spread hatred against the Arabs and ‘controlled their [the Christians’] minds by playing with the truths of religion’ (saytarat c ala¯ c uqu¯lihim bi-tala¯ c ubiha¯ bi-h˙aqa¯’iq a-dı¯n (Libya 1, p. 51). The textbooks of Lebanon say that Christian pilgrims (contrary to what, for example, the Syrian textbooks say) did indeed suffer afflictions on their way to the holy places. Consequently, the Pope believed that the Holy Land must be freed from Islamic rule and put under the authority of the Church (Lebanon, pp. 67, 68). The textbook also says that common people saw the Crusades as an act of religious devotion.
All textbooks, except for the Jordanian, also refer to a difficult social situation in Europe. The Syrian, Lebanese, Palestinian, Egyptian and Libyan manuals say that the peasants suffered from poverty and the feudal system and wanted to improve their situation by participating in the campaigns. According to the Lebanese, Palestinian and Tunisian text books, the Crusades were also a means of solving internal conflicts in Europe. In addition, the Tunisian schoolbooks mention an excess of population in Europe. Except for Libya and Tunisia, all the textbooks mention the Salju¯qs’ defeating the Byzantines at Malazgird (Mantzikert or Manzikert) in August 1071 and the subsequent call for help by the Byzantines as being among the causes of the Crusades.
Important too are the political ‘weakness’ (d˙ucf ) and ‘fragmentation’ (tafakkuk) of the Islamic or Arab world. The textbooks of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Palestine and Libya consider them to be direct reasons for the Crusades or at least to have encouraged the crusaders in making their campaigns. For instance, the Tunisian textbooks mention that the Fa¯timids were suffering from upheavals and the Salju¯qs were undergoing internal struggles and split up. ‘The crusaders took advantage of this situation to launch their campaigns against the Islamic world’ (istaghall al-s˙alı¯biyyu¯n ha¯dha¯ al-wad˙c li-tas˙c¯ıd hajama¯tihim d˙idd al-ca¯lam al-isla¯mı¯) (Tunisia 2, p. 240)
The Saudi Arabian and Libyan textbooks also state that hostility and hatred against Islam incited the crusaders. The hostility resulted, according to the Saudi textbooks, from ‘the greatness of the Muslims’ influence and the spread of Islam’ (tac a¯z˙um nufu¯dh al-muslimı¯n wa-intisha¯r al-isla¯m) (Saudi Arabia 2, p. 111). According to the Libyan textbooks, the ‘hatred’ (h˙ iqd) was caused by ‘the cultural superiority of the Arab nation’ (al-tafawwuq al-h˙ ad ˙a¯rı¯ li-al-umma al-’arabiyya), ‘the fight of the Arab nation against oppression’ (muh˙ a¯rabat al-umma al-c arabiyya li-al-z˙ ulm) and ‘Islam’s discovery of the falseness and deception, which the Church practises’ (kashf al-isla¯m li-al-zayf wa-al khida¯ c alladhı¯ tuma¯risuhu¯ al-kanı¯sa) (Libya 1, p. 70).
 

Ming

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The Crusades were obviously not defensive as most people these days find them offensive.
 

darthfanta

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no
if done by the Byzantines maybe.
but English, French, and Germans declaring war, travelling thousands of miles and setting up catholic kingdoms when they never existed isn't defensive by any stretch of the imagination.
Well technically, for the first crusade anyway, they were doing this on behalf of the ERE.
 

PEP

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no
if done by the Byzantines maybe.
but English, French, and Germans declaring war, travelling thousands of miles and setting up catholic kingdoms when they never existed isn't defensive by any stretch of the imagination.

It is defensive if you consider Christianity as a whole was attacked...
 

DarthJF

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Well technically, for the first crusade anyway, they were doing this on behalf of the ERE.
Too bad they didn't give the captured territory back to Byzantium, who they were supposed to be helping, but distributed it among themselves.
 

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The Crusades were obviously not defensive as most people these days find them offensive.

Most people today are in utter ignorance of them, but have a prefect vision of an entirely imagined and offensive thing in their place.
Modern ignorance and presentist arrogance are not an argument for their not being defensive.

Their not being defensive is an argument for their not being defensive though. Unless you count in defense of Individuals, pilgrims and etc.
But ever war ever has been in defence of individual specific people, even if that's only soldiers or just a single ruler so that probably doesn't count.
Although, if you think about it, fighting to because people were being killed and to protect others from being killed is 'morally' admirable compared to fighting because 'nations' or their interests were threatened as in defensive wars.
 
Last edited:

darthfanta

Basileus Basileōn
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Too bad they didn't give the captured territory back to Byzantium, who they were supposed to be helping, but distributed it among themselves.
They gave back some, like west Anatolia.They would have gotten a lot more extra territory if it wasn't for the fact that Stephen of Blois told the emperor that the crusaders were defeated and urged him to retreat instead of helping the crusader army--which the crusaders took as a betrayal and their oaths to return lost lands to the emperor no longer binding.