No, it doesn't. Just because something works the way it was designed to work, doesn't mean it works well.Jinnai said:
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Duuk said:
Usually Duuk I agree with your posts your much more tempered with understanding then I am.
Where you and I seem to split is the quote above, Duuk, these games out of the box are sloppy at best. May not be perfect is a very generous phrase, CK was a real dissapointment.
I will never dispute Paradox patching thier games, but one has to recognize that when you buy a paradox game your now along for the ride of the fixes and its evolution. That novelty wore off for me with HOI, it took a year for the U.S. AI to do anything.
So what it comes down to is faith in the process, I have no doubt about CK becoming a wonderful engrossing game, Im simply saying for the many of the gamers out thier who dont want to wait a year, or two, for that to happen dont buy the game until they have achieved that end.
Shockingly some of us would like to have a closer to perfect game out of the box, and not have to go through patch after patch of, what I believe to be, ridicolous balancing issues that can kill a game. They have already been listed many times, but I cant seem to get past the fact that title after title we get the same types of problems.
Am I expecting to much ? I have thought of this over and over and have concluded that even if I am, the best thing I can do is take responsibility over the things I can control, and that is myself soely. I have done the report bugs thing, participated in the development of HOI and CK with my contributions and observations in the bug forums.
But if I wanted to be a beta tester I would have applied. Im not going to buy games anymore that require me to participate in bug fixes and forums to get a patch so that it works they way it should. I, and a lot of other people, are simply going to wait for Paradox to get it right themselves, and when they do I will buy, and if that means its a year or two later then thems the breaks. The best way to get this process changed is take control of yourself and your participation, the core of that is your purchase, believe me if the numbers dont add up they will change thier development/release policies.
I suspect they already have to a degree, but CK was the last title I will be fooled on.
I bought 1503AD by Sunflowers. After I first installed it, I was shocked to see no multiplayer mode, even though the MP mode was the best part of 1602AD.
So I checked their website and it said there would "shortly" be a patch for MP. That was in April 2003. I waited... and waited... and waited.
In May or so of 2004, they finally admitted that there wasn't going to be an MP patch.
I never played the game even once, because of the lack of an MP mode. Not once.
Had it been a Paradox game, I would have spent a month mastering the SP mode while waiting for the MP mode that would have shown up in the first few weeks.
Activision never patched Call to Power 2 past 1.1, even though there are some serious AI flaws (not rebuilding their capitals once lost) and a very exploitable MP bug. A simple 1.2 patch would have fixed all that.
1503AD was a total loss for me, Call to Power 2 is a good game that is hard for me to love because of poor AI and lack of MP ability (it's that bad of a bug).
I've never wasted money on a Paradox game (except that I accidently bought _2_ copies of Vicky, but I did send one to my brother in law in the Navy). Are there games I like more than others? Sure. But even the ones I don't like I spent a week or two on, which was well worth the $40 for me.
So I checked their website and it said there would "shortly" be a patch for MP. That was in April 2003. I waited... and waited... and waited.
In May or so of 2004, they finally admitted that there wasn't going to be an MP patch.
I never played the game even once, because of the lack of an MP mode. Not once.
Had it been a Paradox game, I would have spent a month mastering the SP mode while waiting for the MP mode that would have shown up in the first few weeks.
Activision never patched Call to Power 2 past 1.1, even though there are some serious AI flaws (not rebuilding their capitals once lost) and a very exploitable MP bug. A simple 1.2 patch would have fixed all that.
1503AD was a total loss for me, Call to Power 2 is a good game that is hard for me to love because of poor AI and lack of MP ability (it's that bad of a bug).
I've never wasted money on a Paradox game (except that I accidently bought _2_ copies of Vicky, but I did send one to my brother in law in the Navy). Are there games I like more than others? Sure. But even the ones I don't like I spent a week or two on, which was well worth the $40 for me.
Odin1970 said:
That is a matter of opinion. Disappointment is certainly not what I felt when I first played CK (with patch 1.01). Recognition of bugs, desire for more, but not disappointment.
I kind of agree with odin, but not when it comes down to that either we have very complex games which are buggy at release and we practicaly have to beta test them after buying, or we have bugfree releases which work as designed, but are not as complex. In this situation I'd rather wait for the patches, and I also think that Paradox won't stay up if they start developing simple games, because there are others who do that better.
(as for patching I must mention atari and magic the gathering: battlegrounds. The box said there were going to be downloadable contents, new spells and stuff, but there aren't any, and most likely won't be any. One dlc was released for the x-box, but none for pc. It will be interesting to see paradox team up with atari, sooooo different business model.)
(as for patching I must mention atari and magic the gathering: battlegrounds. The box said there were going to be downloadable contents, new spells and stuff, but there aren't any, and most likely won't be any. One dlc was released for the x-box, but none for pc. It will be interesting to see paradox team up with atari, sooooo different business model.)
Duuk,
Nice list
though I'm not sure if it's reasonable or likely for them all to be fixed. Radical redesign is not usually a patch option, and some of those are so deep-rooted it might be a bitch to band-aid over.
For the most part, the game is what it is. I would be satisfied with a bug-fixed game as the game-design itself is not one which is going to hold long-term appeal for me anyway.
IMHO EU2 is still the greatest game of all time, and it still has similar, though far fewer annoyances: How did those Georgians get to Roanoke to attack me! and why won't the Bavarians stop sending me peace proposals aaaaaaaaaargggggggghhhhhhhh.
At some point the game design is, as the game design does and it would take CK2 to fix it.
Nice list
though I'm not sure if it's reasonable or likely for them all to be fixed. Radical redesign is not usually a patch option, and some of those are so deep-rooted it might be a bitch to band-aid over.For the most part, the game is what it is. I would be satisfied with a bug-fixed game as the game-design itself is not one which is going to hold long-term appeal for me anyway.
IMHO EU2 is still the greatest game of all time, and it still has similar, though far fewer annoyances: How did those Georgians get to Roanoke to attack me! and why won't the Bavarians stop sending me peace proposals aaaaaaaaaargggggggghhhhhhhh.
At some point the game design is, as the game design does and it would take CK2 to fix it.
I'm sure Paradox will russle up some entirely new game design problems come CK2.Dinsdale said:
Erufailon said:
I dont think Paradox should make less complex games. The very simple truth is thier is only one thing you as a customer can control, and thats if you buy the game. Maybe two things, when...
The games at release are buggy and game balance nightmares, I concede completely that is my opinion it dosent mean I am right, but I can say my opinion is based on plenty of time here, and hours playing paradox games.
In addition I am not the only one who feels this way, albeit, here on the paradox forums I might be in the minority. I spent over a 1000 posts participating in fixes, input and constructive diolques to improve these games.
So now rather then beat my head against a wall, I'm just going to remind people the faster way to a better game, and that is make your purchase conditional on the present quality of the game. The naked support of the status quo isnt helping to improve the game quality, as a matter of fact its more then likely enabling to same business practice to continue. I dont profess to know the subtleties of the Paradox buisiness environment and I no longer care, if I buy a game from them in the future its going to be balanced, and minimal bugs.
No more faith, been there done that.
tombom said:
I dont know tombom did I?
I always encourage people to be intelligent with thier consumption. As far as dissapointment, maybe COTN, but I was dissapointed I couldnt find it in the store. That was when I was still in my "support paradox" faze and would have bought the title just to get them more resources.
Once CK came out, and crashed over and over and over, couldnt restart a save game, and the AI did nothing, save for when I became papal controller I realized my blind support was misplaced.
You could say I am a converted fanboi.
Odin1970 said:
That’s the impression I had. When CK came out, I started reading the forum. I’d hadn’t followed the game’s development at all (same with Vicky by the way; I hadn’t read a single forum post about it until after its release). I saw many of your posts there, some dating from when this forum first opened.
It was clear you followed the game’s development with avid interest. In fact, I think it was from your posts that I learned about its unusual history with Sun Flower. Anyway, you struck me as a disappointed fan—not a troll, which is what I still think.
Anyway, I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere with you current arguments. I stopped playing CK some time ago for many of the reasons you discuss. But, like I said, I’ll buy Paradox’s next game as soon as its released (unless they switch genres). Why? Because I love complex games and I’m patient—as patient as Job—with anyone who has the ambition and balls to make these types of games.
I neither play CK now. I put all CK time into event scripting, ready to be tested when 1.04 sees the light
CK has been collecting dust for months now, by the time the 1.05 patch is out, so will a Total War: Rome be. Guess CK will have to wait a long time yet.
Odin1970 said:
I remember a few months back i had a discussion with you about the quality of CK...Come to find out I have fallen more in line with your positions! ha! I understand completely where you are coming from. I know that I will want HOI2 very much when it comes out..but as of now i am not sure i want to purchase it early. I bought CK in april, played it heavily for a few weeks, and now i am just waiting for it to be improved. Of course I don't want to take anything away from those who enjoy it now. Just as of now, its not my cup of tea. I am hopeful that it will be a good game though...
(quoting me)Still??? How about Victoria, that was released earlier (and i am aching to play it)?
I have not played Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron on the release so i cant say about that, and victoria is alot more stable but still crashes sometimes, and there are plenty of posts on the bug forum that lists some bugs if you think the game only need balance (and even the balacing is pretty important to me)
Victoria crashed alot here, especially during wars, it was a really letdown to me spend so much effort in a battle (and enjoying) to have it crash when i was close to the capital of the adversary
I dont think less complex games would be good for paradox, since all of us here love them (some dont like victoria very much, but i really do) but the games should only be sold when you can finish one match without a crash and without pulling your hair about things that are not working as they should
Please, not many people quote me, and when someone finally does it the quote gets broken....Jerzy_I said:
I have not played Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron on the release so i cant say about that, and victoria is alot more stable but still crashes sometimes, and there are plenty of posts on the bug forum that lists some bugs if you think the game only need balance (and even the balacing is pretty important to me)
I hearthly appraise that, but sadly not everyone can spend money on games (specially importing, you have no idea how much it costs for that) just to wait it get fixed seven months later....Jerzy_I said:
Yup, and i had not even played on 1.00... imagine if i did (i mean, once when i re-installed i remember checking how was the game but dint played much)Scythe said:
Victoria crashed alot here, especially during wars, it was a really letdown to me spend so much effort in a battle (and enjoying) to have it crash when i was close to the capital of the adversary
I dont think less complex games would be good for paradox, since all of us here love them (some dont like victoria very much, but i really do) but the games should only be sold when you can finish one match without a crash and without pulling your hair about things that are not working as they should
DanielMcCollum said:
Pay 50 bucks for a product it should work out of the box. Its as simple as that. Whatever the realities of the software industry are it is ludicrous to expect people not to react negatively if there are problems with a relatively pricey game. How bad the problems may be are a matter of opinion, though as I rushed to the mall to buy H0I on the date it came out and saw inumerable CTDs after loading it, I can guess....
I haven't even gotten it myself yet as I'm in NA, but I really had to chime in on that one.
november said:
Thats just it november, Im not trying to get anywhere, some have the idea I have some adjenda to bring down paradox. I dont, I dont care if you buy thier games or not, honestly I could buy a 1000 units of these games tomorrow no problem, I am blessed with fruitful business decisions early in my life.
Believe me 39.99-59.99 isnt breaking me.
I respect Paradox and the games they make, I enjoy EUII imensely and right now HOI 1.06 with CORE is a fine game. What I dont like is consistant behaviors that take for granted my loyalty, I concede I choose to be here and make the purchase, it just irks me that game after game, we still have these chats. It burns me to no end to preorder a game, under the companies preferred method (direct order) spend hours promoting, talking, and participating in a positive manner for the games benefit, only to be shipped a functional beta.
Then be greeted with arrogant hostility if somehow the integrity of the process is questioned. So you guessed it I will warn anyone who listens not to buy a Paradox product until its sufficently patched and in good order. This is thier choosing, I didnt make these games, Im the guy whom they want to buy them. So if you want to continue buying thier games at release, thats your choice, I'll wait until they work well and then buy them, and if thats a year later and 4-6 patches in (seems to be the consistant barometer) and its at a reduced price, thats Paradox's fault.
My arguments arent getting me anywhere november, because Im already thier, my mind is made up, but because of the generous nature of Paradox board forums I can state my opinions. I could do this on every thread if I wanted to as long as I stay within the rules and have a modicum of ontopic content in my posts. I dont do that I apply these opinions to appropriate topics, and now very rarely, however as you can see by the other posts, Im not alone.
suetonius said:
I wouldnt purchase HOI2 early, what evidence do you have that something has changed in the development process? Faith? If so let me remind you of the prior releases and the processes which each has gotten to this point, go ahead have a look at the bug forums, and general forums, Im not making it up and Paradox isnt hiding it, its all right here.
CK is a good game, at its heart is perhaps the only true Medieval simulator ever (the marriage model). Thats really the crux of medieval politics, yes thier were wars and crusades but what other game out thier, set in this period, has this marriage feature? I would venture none, CK in the end will be a great game, after more patches and development it will be a jewel in the crown of Paradox's portfolio.
Personally I would wait until its more polished and cleaned up before it makes it back onto my hard drive, and in the future I will never buy an a game thats not more polished on release from Paradox. This is thier bed, they should lay in it. If you bought HOI now the platnium pack with 1.06 and CORE (I think thats what it has) that would be pretty dam close to the game as it was advertised 2 years ago.
So thier in lies the paradox, if you will, you want to purchase now and wait for the jewel to be repolished and set? Or do you want to buy it when its glimmering and at its finest? Me I prefer the later, and all the better if I can get it cheaper, maybe next game the jeweler will try harder to get you a higher sheen on thier creation.
Sera said:
Whats funny is that when CK first saw the light of day, it was being compared to Medieval Total War as competition.