• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Surgünoglu

Colonel
44 Badges
Jul 26, 2002
1.011
20
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
I've been watching the Ottomans slowly creep back up (revolters like Mentese and Aydin have lost territory to Turkish patriots, which revert to the OE), only to be shattered by another crusade. God, that's fun to play as a human, but the AI just can't seem to handle it.

I'm wondering if anyone remembers when the Ottomans were Eastern in tech rather than in the "Ottoman" tech group. Was this a fix to something? Did a new, slightly slower tech group correct some serious problem with the Ottomans? I don't remember vanilla EU3 having that bad a problem with them, but it was also several years ago.
 

Grubnessul

Your Friendly Dictator Next Door
76 Badges
Dec 17, 2006
6.000
559
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
AFAIK, it was to give the Ottomans and Easterners their own, distinct units, rather than Russian Spahi and Ottoman Cossacks. Why the tech rates are not the same anymore, I do not know.
 

Kyrator

First Lieutenant
41 Badges
Jan 10, 2011
289
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Dungeonland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines
I've been watching the Ottomans slowly creep back up (revolters like Mentese and Aydin have lost territory to Turkish patriots, which revert to the OE), only to be shattered by another crusade. God, that's fun to play as a human, but the AI just can't seem to handle it.

I'm wondering if anyone remembers when the Ottomans were Eastern in tech rather than in the "Ottoman" tech group. Was this a fix to something? Did a new, slightly slower tech group correct some serious problem with the Ottomans? I don't remember vanilla EU3 having that bad a problem with them, but it was also several years ago.

i dont see this happening at all most of the time they easily expand in all directions and when i pllay as them i can easily subdue half of europe before 1500 with holy war casus belli
 

sprites

Field Marshal
81 Badges
May 1, 2008
6.655
190
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • 200k Club
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
they were far from unstoppable , especially when played by AI ... if you play them the changes won't matter much anyway!

A fun fact : they were among tech leaders in the 1500 and early 1600s ...
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.443
38.817
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Ottoman tech group is in no way a nerf.
Indeed. IIRC it give the Ottomans a higher starting tech than the Europeans.
 

Ephafn

Custom User Title
48 Badges
Sep 10, 2009
335
220
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Prison Architect
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Ottoman tech group is in no way a nerf.

Playing as the Ottomans currently, one of my main annoyance with the new tech group is that it pretty much only consist of the Ottomans themselves. All the other nations with it are sitting on Ottoman cores and are waiting to be annexed. So there is almost no neighbors bonus to techs, which is a pretty large penalty for any nation that is not a tech leader in everything.
 

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
I've been watching the Ottomans slowly creep back up (revolters like Mentese and Aydin have lost territory to Turkish patriots, which revert to the OE), only to be shattered by another crusade. God, that's fun to play as a human, but the AI just can't seem to handle it.

I'm wondering if anyone remembers when the Ottomans were Eastern in tech rather than in the "Ottoman" tech group. Was this a fix to something? Did a new, slightly slower tech group correct some serious problem with the Ottomans? I don't remember vanilla EU3 having that bad a problem with them, but it was also several years ago.

Ottoman AI was always bad, not matter which EU3 version you speak about. They were struggling all the time and whilst historical strong nations like France or Castille got a buff so they manage to expand to their historical borders, Ottomans remained completely untouched and untweaked. The latest version (DW) made Ottomans even worse. The AI simply can't handle the Strait (Bosporus, Gallipoli) and almost every province having other's nations core on them which leads to revolts once they are at war.

I think CanOmer made a good solution on this by simply connecting Thrace and Bythnia by a land connection which can't be blocked by sea. Sometimes the easiest fixes are the best ones.
 

BootOnFace

Commissar
42 Badges
Feb 19, 2010
1.515
188
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
If you give the ottoman tech group 100% efficiency, it will still fall far behind Europe by the end of the game because it will have no neighbor bonus. But it will out-tech their Muslim group neighbors. I think that is the best solution.
 

Beamed

American Tyrant
108 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
2.415
7
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Legio
Playing as the Ottomans currently, one of my main annoyance with the new tech group is that it pretty much only consist of the Ottomans themselves. All the other nations with it are sitting on Ottoman cores and are waiting to be annexed. So there is almost no neighbors bonus to techs, which is a pretty large penalty for any nation that is not a tech leader in everything.

..which is not only realistic, but awesome.
 

slaneesh

Captain
69 Badges
Jan 26, 2008
334
42
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Ive newer really dabbled in EU mods so i have no idea, but are there any who deals mainly with the AI?

I know theres quite some talent on these forums and as far as i can tell Magna Mundi have modified AI.

I mean thats prob my main gripe with EU3 - The AI not beeing able to handle itself without all kinds of bonuses. You really have to add static modifiers to make them stable.
 

Surgünoglu

Colonel
44 Badges
Jul 26, 2002
1.011
20
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
If you give the ottoman tech group 100% efficiency, it will still fall far behind Europe by the end of the game because it will have no neighbor bonus. But it will out-tech their Muslim group neighbors. I think that is the best solution.

Don't get me wrong--it's the beginning of the game that's clearly the worst, and the Ottomans are consistently the only historically great power that fails to achieve greatness--luck or no. But the long-term lag seems odd to me, and I wonder if an Eastern tech Ottoman Empire was somehow unfitting, or if there was a problem. That's what my skepticism is about. Was it broken? If so, how, and if not, then why did they "fix" it?
 

Trin Tragula

Design Lead - Crusader Kings 3
Paradox Staff
28 Badges
Aug 1, 2003
6.534
13.790
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • IPO Investor
  • Paradox Order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
I find the real reason the Ottomans underperform is that their provinces are too poor. EU3 favors the west the most when it comes to tax and manpower. Historical population is worth more manpower per person in the game the farther towards France you move (which is why France has a much bigger manpower pool than all of India combined). Taxbase is more abstract, but I'd say the same trend is evident there.
 

Beamed

American Tyrant
108 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
2.415
7
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Legio
I find the real reason the Ottomans underperform is that their provinces are too poor. EU3 favors the west the most when it comes to tax and manpower. Historical population is worth more manpower per person in the game the farther towards France you move (which is why France has a much bigger manpower pool than all of India combined). Taxbase is more abstract, but I'd say the same trend is evident there.

Anatolia is one of the richest areas in the game. :confused:

If you want to look at areas that need improvement, Egypt, Iraq, Persia, and Japan are leading contenders.
 

Kiithis

Grand Poobah
83 Badges
Jan 3, 2008
560
101
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
1399 Ottomans are too weak to get off the ground, but getting rid of the strait will destroy any hope for a Byzantine comeback. I think the Ottoman tech level should be only slightly worse then western if not just as good. I also believe an ai should not be such a global imperialist until later stages of the game. Countries like england and spain seem to be drawn to north africa like magnets to a refrigerator, this is one reason why the ottomans lose so much. During this time no country had the wherewithal or means to face the Ottomans early on. The only reason why the OE didn't take over europe was limit to how far they could march their troops. That and I believe the ai should more actively try to promote cultural unity to lessen the amount of releasable nations.
 

Donnie D

They made me do it!
108 Badges
Mar 12, 2004
734
7
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Starvoid
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
1399 Ottomans are too weak to get off the ground, but getting rid of the strait will destroy any hope for a Byzantine comeback.[...]

The comeback that they did not made historically, and that would be making it basically that much harder for the player? Oh noes! I agree, for gods sake, give the ottomans a non-blockable strait there. And make it, that most european nations stop eating north africa. It´s dirt poor as it is, so it really shouldn´t be so big a target for the AI.
 

Surgünoglu

Colonel
44 Badges
Jul 26, 2002
1.011
20
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
The comeback that they did not made historically, and that would be making it basically that much harder for the player? Oh noes! I agree, for gods sake, give the ottomans a non-blockable strait there.

It is kinda weird that Castille has no problems crossing the Mediterranean but the Ottomans can't cross a darn strait. Was a blockable strait such a problem in EU2? Was it a similar situation? It's been years since I could find my well-played EU2 disc. :)
 

BritNavFan

Lt. General
92 Badges
Mar 14, 2005
1.592
146
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I find the real reason the Ottomans underperform is that their provinces are too poor. EU3 favors the west the most when it comes to tax and manpower. Historical population is worth more manpower per person in the game the farther towards France you move (which is why France has a much bigger manpower pool than all of India combined). Taxbase is more abstract, but I'd say the same trend is evident there.

While it's certainly true that EU favours Europe, I don't think that's the main issue here. I did an analysis and Anatolia is not particularly too poor compared to, say, France. (It's not perfect, but compared to the problems with India, China, Viet Nam, etc. etc., and allowing for the fact that ratios of population between countries could change significantly over 4 centuries but they don't in game, it's a decent approximation.)

There are four areas in Europe that are substantially overpowered even compared to the rest of Europe: Sweden, Austria, Super-Aquileia :eek: (I have no idea why Cortes went all the way to Mexico when Aquileia had just as much gold as the Aztecs), and Greece. Historically, the population of Anatolia outnumbered that of Greece by a factor of something on the order of 4:1 or 6:1 during this period. In EU3, before 1453 the Greek provinces have the same tax base as the Turkish ones. Even after Constantinople gets reclassified as Turkish the Turks only have a 4:3 margin. Again, this is because the Greeks are far too numerous, not because the Turks are especially badly represented. So yes, of course if the resources of the Greek peninsula had been 5x what they historically were, Byzantium would have stood a much better chance of surviving the early 1400's. And of course the Turks would have had more issues controlling Greece if there had been as many Greeks as Turks.

Another problem the Turks have that's new to Divine Wind is that the Golden Horde hates them with an undying hatred, whereas historically the Ottomans and the Crimean Horde were allies and partners. In earlier versions of EU3 the Hordes of Russia were usually allied to the Ottomans. This is a very major deterioration in the Ottomans' strategic position.

The comeback that they did not made historically, and that would be making it basically that much harder for the player? Oh noes! I agree, for gods sake, give the ottomans a non-blockable strait there. And make it, that most european nations stop eating north africa. It´s dirt poor as it is, so it really shouldn´t be so big a target for the AI.

Sure.

Keep the unrealistic population and resources the Greeks have.

Keep all the arbitrary cores the Byzantines have on lands they hadn't controlled since Manzikert.

Keep 1399 Thrace valued as if it's the capital of a major power, rather than starting it poor and increasing its value after 1453.

But remove a realistic feature: the fact that the Straits can be blocked by naval power. The Straits were blocked by naval power to considerable historic effect on a couple of significant occasions in the first millenium, and it's absolutely realistic for the 1453 Turks' naval power to be competent to prevent the Byzantines from crossing the Strait with an army.

It is kinda weird that Castille has no problems crossing the Mediterranean but the Ottomans can't cross a darn strait. Was a blockable strait such a problem in EU2? Was it a similar situation? It's been years since I could find my well-played EU2 disc. :)
If the Ottomans and the Byzantines had historically accurate resources, the absolute naval dominance of the Strait by the Ottomans would not be in any question.

To answer your original question:

The game effects of being in the same tech group include sharing technological development (through neighbour bonuses), units, and maps. Therefore, it's good that the Ottomans got moved into a different tech group from the Russians, as historically the Ottomans and the Russians did not go out of their way to help each other technologically, they had distinct unit types (it's bad for flavour if someone playing the Russians has units named things like "Janissaries"), and they interacted with different sets of countries: Russia shouldn't have diplomatic relations with Ethiopia, but the Ottomans should.

It also makes sense for the Ottomans should have a unique unit tree, and IIRC the way the .exe is, to define a unit tree you have to define a tech group of that name first.

What does not make sense is that the Ottomans do not share technological development with other Muslim countries. Of course they did!

So IMO the Ottomans (and the other "Ottoman" tech group countries) should be part of the Muslim tech group, but the Ottomans should have their own customized unit type and maybe a 10% tech bonus or tech cost discount from a modifier.
 
Last edited: