Were colonies ultimately good for the colonizer?

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DoomBunny

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How much of this death comes through disease? I expect something of a majority given the state of healthcare/disease awareness/virulence of hitherto unseen diseases?

That's hardly something that the Europeans could be blamed for, rather it's an environmental disaster. I'm aware that in cases disease was spread intentionally, but still it seems that most of the deaths may be due to circumstance.
 

Henry IX

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How much of this death comes through disease? I expect something of a majority given the state of healthcare/disease awareness/virulence of hitherto unseen diseases?

That's hardly something that the Europeans could be blamed for, rather it's an environmental disaster. I'm aware that in cases disease was spread intentionally, but still it seems that most of the deaths may be due to circumstance.

Based on population esimates for those populations that were in contact with populations that were in contact with Europeans, and therefore exposed to disease, but not to direct contact with Europeans, the mortality figures seem to be about 1/3rd of the population. An additional caveat to these numbers (on top of issues with esimating populations) is that these societies were generally non-urban and so would likely have different patterns of spread of disease to the urban populations of South America. It is worth noting that the black plague is generally accounted as causing about that rate of death in Europe, which suggests the numbers are not way off. Assuming you can trust these figures the effect of disease directly accounts for about one half to one third of the mortality of the urban societies of Meso-America. Of course the reality is that disease is synergistic with other causes of mortality - war, slavery, famine and social collapse will all significantly increase the death rate from disease.
 

Arilou

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Based on population esimates for those populations that were in contact with populations that were in contact with Europeans, and therefore exposed to disease, but not to direct contact with Europeans, the mortality figures seem to be about 1/3rd of the population. An additional caveat to these numbers (on top of issues with esimating populations) is that these societies were generally non-urban and so would likely have different patterns of spread of disease to the urban populations of South America. It is worth noting that the black plague is generally accounted as causing about that rate of death in Europe, which suggests the numbers are not way off. Assuming you can trust these figures the effect of disease directly accounts for about one half to one third of the mortality of the urban societies of Meso-America. Of course the reality is that disease is synergistic with other causes of mortality - war, slavery, famine and social collapse will all significantly increase the death rate from disease.

And the reverse: Bad diseases can often cause famines, social collapse, etc.

It's also notable that unlike the Black Death we're talking about an entire continent's worth of diseases getting unleashed on an unprotected system at once (or at least in rapid succession) meaning that the usual lottery of immunity gets much harder (since even if you luck out on smallpox, the measles might still kill you)
 

Starred109

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I've heard mixed things on this. Now, as far as I know, pretty much all historians agree that being colonized was bad for the colony. However, I've heard more mixed things on whether it was good for the colonizer. I mean, colonies were expensive to make and maintain, and they generally didn't want to stay colonies either. While at the time I'm sure colonizers thought they were good, given what we know now, did that end up being true?

Well, as long as you can afford the colony economically, then it has the benefits of more resources and manpower.
 

fredinno

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You are describing it like it's some sort of natural process rather then the result of a deliberate British policy to ban the spreading of industrial technology and introduce price distortions to strangle Indian industry. The logical place to make textile mills in the idealized market was India, that was where there was a large textile industry and where cotton was grown. In order to prevent that you need to ban the sale of industrial machines to the Indians and then collect your taxes in agricultural products but not manufactured ones.

And this wasn't some insignificant or short lived policy. The American revolution can be traced to the backlash against British efforts to kill early american industries in printing, iron smelting, even hats. The Opium wars aren't called the Textiles wars because the British wanted the Indians selling an agricultural product which wouldn't compete with British industry.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that economic nationalism was still strong in the 19th Century. The USA and Canada did the same things to the western provinces, and in Canada's case, the Maritimes.

The Maritimes had a pretty prosperous economy until the National Policy screwed things up. It never really recovered, since it lacked the resources the West had to recover from that.

India was just that on a much larger and powerful level, in many ways.


In any case, in general, a pretty good rule of thumb is that colonies can be divided into 4:

Trading Outposts/Plantation/Island Colonies (Hong Kong, West Indies, Oceania): Highly profitable. Everyone likes Sugar, Coffee, and everyone wants to trade something with China- unless you're Chinese. They can be hard to hold on to, and defend, though.

General Asian: Pretty high development potential due to high levels of resources, population, and basic infrastructure. Can have high cost to take over- but almost always profitable to some extent once you do for all involved entities.

Settler Colonies (Americas, Australiasia): Not always profitable (sometimes unprofitable, like French Quebec), but economic development potential high. Plus, lots of feedback effects that eventually go back into the treasury from private companies.

African Colonies: Good luck making money from these. No infrastructure (minus N. Africa- but the Ottoman Empire wasn't all that great making railways), leading to few extractable resources, and thus potential cash.

Unless you're the Belgian Congo, S. Africa, or Egypt. These go into the "General Asian" Category.

Fur Colonies: Profitable, with little needed infrastructure. But Fur eventually gets out of fashion... and that land could be used for something else, a lot more useful. Like farms.
 
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Herbert West

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That's hardly something that the Europeans could be blamed for, rather it's an environmental disaster.

Oh, how cute. Like the diseases just magically crossed the ocean all by themselves.

To clarify: the diseases themselves might not have been introduced intentionally (in the initial period of the population collapse), but the deliberate destruction of the existing states and peoples was an intentional policy of hispanic and later conquerers of the New World.

Societies can usually survive catastrophic plagues, devastating wars, or central governmental collapses, but rarely survive both, and almost never survive all three. In the conqusitador era of colonisation (and copies thereof), you had all three.

The intent might not have been behind the diseases, but the intent was behind the destruction of mitigating factors. I dont get a free pass for accidentally giving you smallpox if I then bomb your hospitals.
 
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Andre Bolkonsky

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Oh, how cute. Like the diseases just magically crossed the ocean all by themselves.

He is discussing intent. No one crossed the ocean for the express purpose of spreading disease. It is the difference between being an unwitting carrier of a disease everyone you know is immune to but to which these other people are highly susceptible, and the fabricated tales of wicked traders infecting blankets with smallpox before distributing them to Native Americans so they can steal their land.
 

DoomBunny

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Oh, how cute. Like the diseases just magically crossed the ocean all by themselves.

To clarify: the diseases themselves might not have been introduced intentionally (in the initial period of the population collapse), but the deliberate destruction of the existing states and peoples was an intentional policy of hispanic and later conquerers of the New World.

Societies can usually survive catastrophic plagues, devastating wars, or central governmental collapses, but rarely survive both, and almost never survive all three. In the conqusitador era of colonisation (and copies thereof), you had all three.

The intent might not have been behind the diseases, but the intent was behind the destruction of mitigating factors. I dont get a free pass for accidentally giving you smallpox if I then bomb your hospitals.

Ok. So other than resurrecting a dead thread in order to agree with me, did you have a point?
 

yerm

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Oh, how cute. Like the diseases just magically crossed the ocean all by themselves.

To clarify: the diseases themselves might not have been introduced intentionally (in the initial period of the population collapse), but the deliberate destruction of the existing states and peoples was an intentional policy of hispanic and later conquerers of the New World.

Societies can usually survive catastrophic plagues, devastating wars, or central governmental collapses, but rarely survive both, and almost never survive all three. In the conqusitador era of colonisation (and copies thereof), you had all three.

The intent might not have been behind the diseases, but the intent was behind the destruction of mitigating factors. I dont get a free pass for accidentally giving you smallpox if I then bomb your hospitals.

Miners are not there to scar the earth with holes, and lumberjacks do not loathe trees. Polluting factories or natural gas frackers are not in it to destroy the environment.

Your entire premise is flawed from top to bottom. Conquistadors and most colonizers were intent on profit. Ones who weren't were trying to establish new homes and settle. People didn't enlist to sail for distant shores, or tack their name to an insurance board, because they wanted to slaughter natives. Natives were slaughtered as a consequence of profit motives or territorial conflict, or, believe it or not, accidents.
 

diegosimeone

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Honestly, in this case you simply wouldn't be likely to have a modern conception of India. The nation as it is now defined is an arbitrary creation of British rule subsequently divided on independence as best as possible. If three different powers (for example) had ruled India then you'd probably have three different Indian entities.

India
Pakistan
Bangladesh

I still count three different entities.
 

Pyoro

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Miners are not there to scar the earth with holes, and lumberjacks do not loathe trees. Polluting factories or natural gas frackers are not in it to destroy the environment.

Your entire premise is flawed from top to bottom. Conquistadors and most colonizers were intent on profit. Ones who weren't were trying to establish new homes and settle. People didn't enlist to sail for distant shores, or tack their name to an insurance board, because they wanted to slaughter natives. Natives were slaughtered as a consequence of profit motives or territorial conflict, or, believe it or not, accidents.
I don't really get where the point here is.

Slavers don't hate slaves, so their business is totally OK? Obviously not, so why is it relevant?

Plus, even if those analogies made any sense, a good lumberjack will go into forest and extract trees in such a way that the forests survives, because he knows that otherwise he'll run out of trees at some point. The forest will change, but it won't die.
Meanwhile, you look at what the Europeans did ie on the Caribbean islands and instead of using the native society in any productive measure they basically simply destroyed it. If by profits standards that was a stupid thing to do. Instead of a large, readily available and cheap work force they were left with so few people they had to import slaves from Africa.

Well done. Not.

Also, plenty of natives were enslaved/killed simple by Europeans feeling entitled to enslaving/killing them and not for any economic or other reason. This sounds almost like a "clean Wehrmacht" myth - "we just wanted to fight a war. Those unfortunate consequences weren't our intentions". Rubbish.
 

DoomBunny

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