Well, tariff is not a bug, maybe!

[Cavalry]

I smelt that the current tariff is some Paradox means to encourage player to earn prestiges. Tariff is a large source of income, often larger than tax at 50% if you close all the consumer good factories and maybe more if you close the food RGO too! So if you don't produce your pop needs, you will get big bucks but have to be sure that you pop can get their needs. So you need high prestige to enjoy money from tariff without harming your people! And monarchy can get benefit from tariff because you can keep Free Trade parties at bay!

 

[unmerged(31118)]

I smelt that the current tariff is some Paradox means to encourage player to earn prestiges. Tariff is a large source of income, often larger than tax at 50% if you close all the consumer good factories and maybe more if you close the food RGO too! So if you don't produce your pop needs, you will get big bucks but have to be sure that you pop can get their needs. So you need high prestige to enjoy money from tariff without harming your people! And monarchy can get benefit from tariff because you can keep Free Trade parties at bay!

I thought it was declared a bug since the money didn't actually seem to come from the people, that is it wasn't subtracted from their reserves. Thus it was free money. Hence, tarrifs wouldn't harm the people...unfortunately

 

[OriginalRafiki]

It's a bug. As long as tariffs don't make goods more expensive to buy for your POPs, it's a bug and an exploit waiting to be looked at

There are enough incentives for players to earn prestige already; I can hardly think that P'dox wanted tariffs to be one of them

Rafiki

 

[Nightcap]

It's a bug. As long as tariffs don't make goods more expensive to buy for your POPs, it's a bug and an exploit waiting to be looked at

Yeah, the problem isn't that you make large amounts of profit from tarrifs rather that the money comes from nowhere.

If it worked as it should the potential for huge tariff profits would drop because your POPS would go bankrupt.

 

[unmerged(31118)]

If it worked as it should the potential for huge tariff profits would drop because your POPS would go bankrupt.

Well, as Rafiki said, the impact should be increased prices paid by POPs. Having just read the "meeting POPs needs" section in VickyWiki, I wonder if the problem is that the price paid by a pop is paid given it's price on the WM and they didn't put an opperation that would an add in tarrif.

Maybe it would mess up the WM? I can't decide if it would. On one hand, the WM does seem to assume universal free trade. OTOH, tarrifs should change that, but I'm not sure if just adding the tax burden to the price for the POPs will adequately simulate the role of tarrifs.

Hmmm, oh wait, (was about to post then had this thought)--my last concern is false because if the tarrif percentage were just added to the price paid, the it would affect how many units bought by POPs, changing domestic consumption for all nations, which should adequately model the price given tarrif restraints.

BTW, any body else think supply-demand curves would be a cool feature for the ledger?

 

[Nightcap]

I wonder if the problem is that the price paid by a pop is paid given it's price on the WM and they didn't put an opperation that would an add in tarrif.

That is the most likely explaination for the problem.

BTW, any body else think supply-demand curves would be a cool feature for the ledger?

Might be interesting, I have never really felt I need one though.

 

[Kanitatlan]

The historical purpose of tarrifs was to protect local producers (as well as make money) and therefore setting tarrifs high should raise the price that POPs pay for domestically supplied goods as well as imports. The raised internal prices are paid to the 'workers' producing it rather than the government but this does produce a more complicated algorithm for the game designers to put together.

 

[unmerged(30848)]

The historical purpose of tarrifs was to protect local producers (as well as make money) and therefore setting tarrifs high should raise the price that POPs pay for domestically supplied goods as well as imports. The raised internal prices are paid to the 'workers' producing it rather than the government but this does produce a more complicated algorithm for the game designers to put together.

Quite correct. I had thought that tariffs ought to only increase the price of goods bought on the WM, but neglected the commensurate raise in domestic prices as well. Good call.

Tariffs should probably be more flexible, and consequential. Rather than taxing everything equally, one ought to be able to tax specific goods (as happened historically). Also, tariffs that hurt the economies of other nations ought to cause an increase in the rate of decay in relations. The opposite, of course, ought to apply to subsidized goods.

 

[unmerged(31118)]

Quite correct. I had thought that tariffs ought to only increase the price of goods bought on the WM, but neglected the commensurate raise in domestic prices as well. Good call.

This would be the easiest to implement, I'm guessing.

Tariffs should probably be more flexible, and consequential. Rather than taxing everything equally, one ought to be able to tax specific goods (as happened historically). Also, tariffs that hurt the economies of other nations ought to cause an increase in the rate of decay in relations. The opposite, of course, ought to apply to subsidized goods.

Completely agree, though it would probably require more re-tooling and fits under diplomatic stuff. Tarrifs should effect militancy and consciousness...It's evident the game designers meant this to be the case, with free trade/protectionist parties.

In fact, might tarrifs already have these political effects? If not, fixing that might go a long way to fixing the bug (even if it were free money, if it was pissing off ALL your farmers, you'd have pretty good incentive to lower tarrifs).

 

[Cavalry]

It's a bug. As long as tariffs don't make goods more expensive to buy for your POPs, it's a bug and an exploit waiting to be looked at
Rafiki

So what you say about half price of import in lessair faire, it is more magic than tariff! Just imagine the sellers pay the tariff, not the pop!

So tariff is the bonus of protectionism-conservative-monarchy-farmer nations, half price of import is the bonus of laisser fair-liberal-democracy-clerk nations. I think the ideal perfect nation of Paradox system is:
High prestige + all clerk-craft-capitalist pop in states+ produce only high value goods + import A LOT of low value input + some colonies to add prestige and RGOs.

The victory point encourage that, very low Industrial point for RGO, low price for raw material. Laisser-fair help that ideal nations.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

Maybe it would mess up the WM? I can't decide if it would. On one hand, the WM does seem to assume universal free trade. OTOH, tarrifs should change that, but I'm not sure if just adding the tax burden to the price for the POPs will adequately simulate the role of tarrifs.

EDIT: The below is how things would work for states.

Given that there is a world market (and no other market) tarrifs would not directly affect the cost to the player. The global average tarrif level for a particular product (I know you only have one tarrif level but different countries with different tarrifs produce different goods) would add to the price of that product, whilst your national tarrif level would affect the amount of money earnt from the product (essentially, it would be subtracted from the amount paid by the consumer), therefore making your people poorer (if it works like that).

EDIT: For POPs, the tarrif value of domestically bought goods would just be added to the cost, since POPs buy local produce first IIRC

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

I think the ideal perfect nation of Paradox system is:
High prestige + all clerk-craft-capitalist pop in states+ produce only high value goods + import A LOT of low value input + some colonies to add prestige and RGOs.

So long as you can guarantee access to the products you need. Particularly during wartime, you may find that you can't get access to certain raw materials.

I try to make my countries self-sufficient in as many raw materials as possible. Ideally one wants to grab colonies with great raw materials- Samoa for Sulphur, Nigeria for wood and coal, Egpyt for cotton, Algeria for iron, Indochina for rubber and tropical wood, Abu Dhabi for oil.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

So what you say about half price of import in lessair faire, it is more magic than tariff! Just imagine the sellers pay the tariff, not the pop!

Well, since you're asking, I'll tell you I find it a bit peculiar, but I consider it to be an offset for the tax restrictions L-F imposes, added for gameplay reasons.

Frankly, I have problems seeing how a slider, that just as well could be called "How much free money would you like" can be seen as anything else than a bug, eother you look at it from a reality point-of-view or from a gameplay point-of-view.

Rafiki

 

[daedalus]

Don't high tariffs also increase your POPs conciousness/militance, as high taxes do?

 

[OriginalRafiki]

CON, I think. But since I usually play countries that end up as ConMons or democracies, I usually don't worry about CON

Rafiki

 

[daedalus]

I have seen it on my game as China, IIRC. Which of course is a pure monarchy, AFAIK.

 

[Jerzy_I]

Tariffs only directly modify Con.

If fixed it will indirectly effect militancy by reducing the amount of goods pops can buy.

 

[Avian073]

The thing when i play with max tariffs i do notice effects. First my pop income goes down, secondly my pop tend to get demoted(craftsmen/clerks) since they can't buy enough to keep themselves middle class. Thirdly tariffs also increase militancy in craftsmen significantly. Though i feel that they should affect relations with other countries since tariffs are in essence attacking their trade/defending yours.

 

[unmerged(30848)]

EDIT: For POPs, the tarrif value of domestically bought goods would just be added to the cost, since POPs buy local produce first IIRC

Is this true? My impression has always been that everything not consumed by domestic industries is sold to the WM. Then, the POPs purchase all of their needs from the WM, even if those particular goods are produced in surplus domestically.

 

[mllfun]

Tariff should got more focus on it.
I think it should be able to set different tariffs on different items from different countries.
and you should also be able to Form custom union, Negotiate economic treaties(most favoured nation..etc), and also Promote ur goods..etc in the diplomacy screen.
Vic got a good economic system, why waste it?