Weird Normal Or Bug??

[Dr Rare]

Does Anyone ever play Persia in CORE 1939 Scenario???Possible BUG???

I know maybe i should post this in the CORE sub forum but i am likely to get more notice here.

Weird Game Persia's IC drop to "0" after about 17th January 1940 in my unmodded CORE 0.91 Game?Even though i am not at war or allied?Does anyone know why??

I tested a number of different CORE installs i have got on my system and between January and March some time there seems to be a bug or strange event.
The only possible Trigger i noted was a diplomatic event with Iraq trying to influence me and whether they influence me or not suddenly all my IC drops away .My industry improvements continued but didn't register except in the province screen when it completed.My supplies and oil etc still go up but my IC becomes 0/0? and i can no longer finish tech builds or troop builds.
I tested a number of times one occasion not even moving troops or doing any game play at all and the same thing happened??
Also one time as Persia around the same dates again Iraq tried to diplomatically influence some other country and then my IC dropped Weird???
Replaying from a save game before strange IC loss and the IC drop still happens.Turning computer off and trying other installs all same problem for me??Even old save games of other country's i loaded up from around dates and Persia had no IC??
Any idea why anyone??Is it a known bug??

Just to check further i played doing nothing as Afghanistan past the dates and there was no IC loss,than i played as Saudi Arabia doing nothing and there was no IC loss and i saw Iraq do diplomacy with Persia,then i saved the Saudi game and reload the Saudi save game playing as Persia and Persia had No IC,something odd is up.????
I also played on for a while (not years)and the IC didnt come back even after reloads??

Any idea anyone??

Just play CORE as Persia on Fast doing nothing Save it in early January(so you can go back and repeat test again for bug quicker) and then continue ,see if it happens to you.

I have been checking it now for hours and its really bugging me ,if its happens on other peoples systems then i will not panic so bad ,but if its just me i will become a paranoid wreck!!!!

So Please check it out and let me know if its happening for you also????

Is it a Known bug but unknown to me ??IS it just a unnoticed bug cos no one plays Persia?Is it just the 39 scenario?(I will probably check that next)
Or is it just part of the game i don't know about???

Time for a Bug hunt ???

Dr

 

[unmerged(61236)]

Ya, as you noted in the other thread, this is a common problem for minors.

In both CORE and Vanilla, the map designers allocated the resources on the map in a way that ensured that all of the majors have a 'sustainable' economy, in that they can usually maintain at least 80% of their maximum IC without reliance on trade or conquest.

The most extreme of these majors is the USA, which is so crazy abundant in coal, oil, and steel that it doesn't have to trade with anyone to maintain a full bore economy.

However, many of the minors in HOI do not have sustainable economies because they lack one or more essential resources, usually oil and rubber but sometimes coal. The end result is a "death spiral" which tends to overtake the country by '44 or so, particularly when the AI is inept in managing the flow of resources.

The best example of the "death spiral" I've ever seen is Hungary, which ends up in a total economic collapse usually by '44 or late '45 unless it substantially expands its borders.

Hungary

Hungary in '36/'39 has a two-resource economy (coal/steel), which is generally the most susceptible to a spectacular economic collapse in HOI. There is no Oil, and no Rubber, so the country must rely on its initial stores and world trade to survive.

In the early part of the game, this works out because the initial starting levels (usually around 20k of everything) are enough to carry it through. On top of this, Hungary can trade its excess steel for rubber and oil on the world market. However, once Hungary gets rolled up into the war, the 10-fold wartime market penalty kicks in.

However, the AI is not smart enough to stop trading in response. So it merrily carries on, trading coal and steel for rubber at insanely high prices (3 steel : 1 rubber becomes 30 steel : 1 rubber). This also reduces the total yield of rubber from the market, which drops to 1/10th the normal amount (50 rubber traded for per month becomes 5 rubber traded for).

In the meantime, Hungary, having run out of rubber, proceeds to convert all its oil reserves at a rate of 2 oil units for every 1 rubber (2:1) because of its low industrial tech levels. Since there is no Oil in the country, the oil then rapidly runs out. Since there is no Oil, coal gets converted at a poor ratio, usually 4:1, meaning 4 coal is used to make 1 oil. These ratios get mulitplied against eachother, with the result being that 8 coal is used to make 1 rubber.

This downward spiral rapidly depletes the coal supply, which is being used to shore up the depleted oil supply, which is used to shore up the depleted rubber supply. Matters are made worse by the AI's insistence on using the world market in wartime, where the AI is frittering away whatever resources it has left on ridiculous trades which cost 20:1, 30:1, or event 40:1!

The end result is zero coal, oil, and rubber. Since there isn't any resources, the country's IC drops to zero. With no IC Hungary can't make supplies and eventually the stockpile of supplies dries up and the army goes to 0 org. In addition, dissent begins to soar and can exceed 80% after a year or so as a result of being unable to produce consumer goods. The irony is that Hungary often has piles of steel laying around, but with no outlet to trade it and no ability to convert it, it becomes useless.

At that point the death spiral is complete, and the economy is in total collapse. A single militia unit could walk in uncontested and annex the whole country.

- - -

I've toyed around in the past with solutions to the problem and there seems to be 2 approaches. You must either edit the resources on the game map to give the country what it needs to become sustainable or alter the conversion rates for coal--> oil--> rubber to reduce the drain. Conversion rates can be altered by giving/acquiring the necessary techs, or editing the country to have the "Agrarian Economy" tech that Bulgaria possesses. Another solution would be to reduce or eliminate the wartime trading penalty, particularly for the AI.

As a side note, the developers in TGW seem to have "solved" the problem by changing all the conversion rates to 1.0, so that 1 coal = 1 oil = 1 rubber. The result drastically reduces the importance of the South Pacific and Middle East, but it does prevent the problem.

- Commander Keen -

 

[Dr Rare]

Thanks a lot for your clear explanation of this CK.

So its not just me and i shouldn't rip out any more hair.I am a little more at ease now

It just seemed weird because it didnt happen with Afghanistan or Saudi when i checked them it seemed to only happen with Persia also it was happening by spring 40 in the 39 scenario.

Tell me more about the"Agrarian Economy" tech that Bulgaria possesses?Do any other country's have it ?How does it work?Do you think it should be added as a tech for all minors country's?

A little drop in pack for core could be made with all the inc files with it added to the minors or maybe even just added to the minors default AI file might work and be simpler,not sure if thats actually possible i am just brainstorming :wacko: ??

Just to confirm again it not just me???

Dr

 

[JoeGiavani]

First of all, Commander Keen's post was extensive and informative. I wish all forum members were like you
Secondly, Agrarian Economy was a tech in C.O.R.E. that was given to all the A.I. minors that allowed them to convert coal to oil to rubber at 1:1:1, basically meaning they'd remain strong throughout the game.
I presume the poster suggested that you mod that tech into the game and give it to the minors.
Or let them start out with all the good conversion techs that are already in the game?
As a minor yourself though, you have to either conquer for resources (You could capture Iraq as Iran and that'd solve all your oil needs), or heavily invest in conversion techs.

 

[unmerged(61236)]

Thanks Joe & Rare,

As Joe noted, the Agrarian tech gives a 1:1:1 conversion ratio, which generally solves the problem. If you want to see it in action, start a CORE game as Bulgaria (they have it in the '36 and '39 scenario right at the start).

As for the AI getting 1:1:1 conversions, I'm not sure that this is actually happening in CORE 0.91 (or 0.85) as the AI is suspectible to the "collapse" listed above. I often tend to shuffle countries around and assume control of AI countries and I've only ever noticed the Agriarian tech for Bulgaria. It could still be that they are getting the conversions, and its not visible to me b/c they go away when a human player jumps in midstream, but I'm not sure. If that were the case, then the AI would be suffering from economic collapse merely due to the trading penalty in wartime.

As a side note, the devs in TGW seem to have noticed this problem early on and they changed all the conversions for all the countries to 1:1:1. I'm not sure whether that was a gameplay decision, or just a testing element that was never removed. In any event, you'll never see these sorts of problems in TGW. However, in TGW this created a secondary problem, since rubber and oil quickly become irrelevant if *everyone* has the 1:1:1 conversion tech.

In any event, if the minors don't already have Agrarian, then perhaps they should. The big problem for the Agrarian tech is that it prevents "Assembly Mass Production", which significantly limits the techs available to the country, since you can't get anything that is dependent on the medium and high level industrial techs. Then again, that is probably more realistic anyways for a minor, at least one which is playing between '36 and '55.

- Commander Keen -

 

[jdrou]

Fixing this was a major goal of Mithel's Starfire mod:

Aims/Desires:
No country's economy should "meltdown". (i.e. initial raw materials should closely supply the initial IC production of the country.)

http://www.mnstarfire.com/ww2/hoi/recommendations.html

 

[unmerged(61236)]

Wow, thanks for the link jdrou!

Its always such a shame that so many good mods were started in various directions but never unified. CORE was a good attempt at this, but I'd be curious to see what the economic and AI improvements in Starfire would do...

Will have to give this a try when I have another bout of spare time...

- Commander Keen -

 

[Dr Rare]

Hoi1 CORE Persia Tweak

Just getting back to this thread to update it.

I added the agrarian economy tech to Persia and it solved the economy collapsing problem completely for them.

The Persian tweak is available to download for all to drop into their CORE games from the New Hoi1 CORE v0.91/0.92 Fixes ,Tweaks & Extras thread at Stony..

http://www.stonyroad.de/forum/showthread.php?t=8853 Post 8

Interestingly enough ,the Hungarian issue brought up in this thread has also been discussed at SR recently ,so its very interesting reading this thread again.

 

[unmerged(61236)]

Lol... I agree Rare...

Its deja vu all over again . Perhaps all the AI minors should get the Agrarian tech by default?

- Commander Keen -

 

[Dr Rare]

Lol... I agree Rare...

Its deja vu all over again . Perhaps all the AI minors should get the Agrarian tech by default?

- Commander Keen -

Yes its defiantly worth considering applying it to some more of them ,as it is a very simple tweak that works.

Dr

 

[bestmajor]

Yes its defiantly worth considering applying it to some more of them ,as it is a very simple tweak that works.

attention here! does definetly not work for countries which are puppets and dont have rubber on their map!

tested this and countries which are affected are lebanon, syria, inner mongolia, etc etc (just tested inner mongolia with 10 coal and ten steel on the map and unless 1 point of rubber isnt added to Hohhot province it isnt working).

bm

 

[unmerged(115821)]

Sorry...perhaps I am misreading...

BM are you saying its not converting coal to oil to rubber?

 

[bestmajor]

Sorry...perhaps I am misreading...

BM are you saying its not converting coal to oil to rubber?

its converting fine but somehow its not working if you dont have rubber.

see full explaiation here:

http://www.stonyroad.de/forum/showpost.php?p=154658&postcount=7

or test yourself.

bm