weird co belligerence killed my game - wtf just happened?

[mangalore]

So I played EU3 and EU4 a lot a few years ago and try to come back atm but weird shit keeps happening.

In my current game I wanted to take Hamburg to coax Bohemia (HRE) into a war. Bohemia was burnt out on manpower and we were pretty even. DOWing Hamburg it specified Bohemia coming to their aid.

Things went good, sieged Hamburg, gave Bohemia's army a pasting, next thing I notice is that in the next clash Brabant and the Teutonic Order joined the fray. I barely beat that and suddenly the Ottomans show up. Half a dozen of Bohemia's allies joined the war and I will get totally destroyed.

So what precisely happened?!? It's around 1600 and I'm Protestant. Is it some HRE thing that Bohemia can call its allies? Hamburg is still the war leader though. There was no coalition or AE on my part as I was mainly busy in Scandinavia. A religious league thing? Well, how the Ottomans then and Hamburg and Brabant aren't Catholic.

At this stage I'm outnumbered 5:1 and Hamburg will only allow a peace that will virtually destroy my German core lands.

Main frustration is that it is not obvious why this happened and obviously if that risk of another 150k troops being called into the same war were indicated I would not have strolled into this war.

 

[Kastomoño]

Were you a member of the HRE? Declaring on a HRE member (Or a free city, which Hamburg is) will call in the emperor as a co-beliggerent.

 

[ShoGuL]

It's a common mistake, caused by sometimes questionable UI choices. The Emperor can always call his allies when defending the HRE or a Free City.

 

[mangalore]

ok. will see if I can continue that game because as is they want to screw me royally.

 

[brifbates]

In this case you suffered the "any DoW on the Emperor calls in the Catholic League" issue would be my guess. It's one reason you usually see the Netherlands get absolutely wrecked if they even break free after an Imperial succession-they DoW into the Catholic League...

 

[mangalore]

In this case you suffered the "any DoW on the Emperor calls in the Catholic League" issue would be my guess. It's one reason you usually see the Netherlands get absolutely wrecked if they even break free after an Imperial succession-they DoW into the Catholic League...

The issue wasn't me Dowing the emperor but that dowing Hamburg which is protected by the HRE allowed them to still call all their allies (including non Catholics) although they are just a co belligerent and not the war leader. I wanted to fight the emperor but as in this game an unholy alliance of Bohemia+TO+Ottomans (despite Bohemia bordering them) I wanted to get Bohemia alone. Well, screwed that one up because the UI didn't warn me.

Issue with a 5:1 odds regardless of my superior soldiers they won't peace out without me giving up about half a dozen countries in the HRE which will kill my progress and can swamp me everywhere. And I'm not sure I can or want to play a desparate hold out war with those odds (have to check their WE).

 

[Kastomoño]

Well, screwed that one up because the UI didn't warn me.

The UI does warn you though. Mousing over the co-beliggerent checkbox tells you that the emperor will be called in as a co-beliggerent and can call in their own allies.

 

[Sfan]

Yes, it explicitely says that the emperor is considered a cobelligerant and will be able to call his own allies. That's what happens to Burgundy pretty much every game, they go to war with Liege and fight themseleves fighting Austria and their allies.

 

[brifbates]

The issue wasn't me Dowing the emperor but that dowing Hamburg which is protected by the HRE allowed them to still call all their allies (including non Catholics) although they are just a co belligerent and not the war leader. I wanted to fight the emperor but as in this game an unholy alliance of Bohemia+TO+Ottomans (despite Bohemia bordering them) I wanted to get Bohemia alone. Well, screwed that one up because the UI didn't warn me.

Issue with a 5:1 odds regardless of my superior soldiers they won't peace out without me giving up about half a dozen countries in the HRE which will kill my progress and can swamp me everywhere. And I'm not sure I can or want to play a desparate hold out war with those odds (have to check their WE).

Declaring war on any HRE member as an outsider is the same as declaring war directly on the emperor for all intents and purposes, the only difference is what CB you may have available and that attacking a member instead allows the emperor and member to bring their allies. The same applies to members attacking others without a proper CB or anyone attacking a free city...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The UI does warn you though. Mousing over the co-beliggerent checkbox tells you that the emperor will be called in as a co-beliggerent and can call in their own allies.

Not that you can trust this mouse-over, since the game has lied for years in some instances (wars you declare into coalitions are the most glaring/flagrant). Despite that this is an objective bug I've not seen it acknowledged despite multiple reports either.

 

[CoolSpin]

This must be as infuriating as warring Venice, Austria declares, hes faster to get the provinces, and Austria vassalize Venice, turning the war into technically as if I declared on Austria. That kind of shenanigans really infuriates me (I quit that game if anyone cares)

 

[mangalore]

The UI does warn you though. Mousing over the co-beliggerent checkbox tells you that the emperor will be called in as a co-beliggerent and can call in their own allies.

Sorry but you have two lists of countries on that screen telling you who will join and why but then you are supposed to als check all tooltips because a third list of countries might join on top of that? There is no reason for it not being in the overview lists where you see at first glance.

Are co belligerents an Art of War concept? I restarted the game with DLC after a years long hiatus and before I only played vanilla. It at least looks that way on the wiki and would at least tell me I don't have Altzheimers concerning always missing that dynamic in EU before.

 

[makaramus]

Sorry but you have two lists of countries on that screen telling you who will join and why but then you are supposed to als check all tooltips because a third list of countries might join on top of that? There is no reason for it not being in the overview lists where you see at first glance.

Are co belligerents an Art of War concept? I restarted the game with DLC after a years long hiatus and before I only played vanilla. It at least looks that way on the wiki and would at least tell me I don't have Altzheimers concerning always missing that dynamic in EU before.

EMPEROR of hre is actually EMPEROR of all lands it... declaring war on any member means you also declared war on holy roman emperor! this is why he can call his allies because you didnt dow prince: You dowed emperor himself .

 

[CasimirX]

Are co belligerents an Art of War concept? I restarted the game with DLC after a years long hiatus and before I only played vanilla. It at least looks that way on the wiki and would at least tell me I don't have Altzheimers concerning always missing that dynamic in EU before.

Co-belligerents were added in 1.8 (the patch that released along with AoW) so if you havent played since mid/late 2014 then yeah it would be a new concept.