Weapon Specialization

[Plague109]

Hey guys.

After watching the Blorg stream in which Wiz took on the Just League an idea occurred to me and I would like to hear you guys' thoughts on it.

For the most part the weapon choices of the different empires were varied, likely due to the random nature of acquiring technology as well as starting weapons. I like how the different types of weapons deal with different defenses better. Kinetic shreds shield, lasers melt through armor, etc... And I was wondering why not allow an empire to set a weapon specialization or a weapon focus?

In the stream the Blorg were able to begin the war fielding two types of weapons (Missiles and Blue lasers if memory serves) but mid-way through Wiz created newer ships with Lighting Clouds (Not sure if this is the exact name). When I saw this I felt it was unrealistic to take your naval officers who had been trained to use lasers and missiles and place them on a ship with lightning as its primary weapon. Now there is no "Naval Officer" mechanic in the game but you can imagine a contingent of recruits fresh out of the academy who had been trained to use lasers and missiles struggling to learn these new weapons.

Allowing a player to freely change their primary weapons makes sense from a game play perspective but I would like to know your thoughts on setting an empire wide weapon specialization (such as Lasers, Missiles, Fighters/Bombers, etc...). This would give the player bonuses to these weapon types and penalties to other types (as the "Officers" aren't trained in these weapons). It would also impose a timer between when you can change your specialization or simply choose no specialization to suffer no bonuses and no penalties.

Finally a weapon specialization of a rival may be discovered through some espionage system which would allow the player to tailor their defenses in such a way to counter their most hated rival, adding another layer of strategy to the game. It would also add a bit of flavor in further diversifying the fighting styles of different empires.

Would love to hear your thoughts and whether you think this could work or not or if it would be beneficial or detrimental.

 

[Xeorm]

Eh, historically troops were surprisingly good at adapting to new weaponry. The problems with new tech is less training for usage, and more tactical problems and familiarity with systems from a technical standpoint.

From a gameplay perspective, I'd hate this idea as well. A major part of the fun of 4x space games is getting to use new and outlandish pieces of weaponry. Making a decision that penalizes me for having fun is...bad.

 

[brn4meplz]

Speaking as a soldier. The weapon system varies little. There may be some learning curve in how to maintain a weapon system or how it operates optimally. But the hands on time required for that is actually minimal.(and with the rate of time progression in stellaris I sure as hell hope the crew learns the ins and outs of the ship before a battle)

Not to mention I hope stuff in my fancy spaceship is relatively automated.

From a gameplay perspective. What happens if I don't select a focus? Sure I don't get a bonus, but I also don't get a malus and honestly being flexible in my warmongering is much too valuable to pass up.

 

[BrownieDog]

Interesting. I like the concept. It's something similar to what me and my friends will be doing over multiplayer. I think that that is a very good idea to have the bonuses and penaltys to your non-start type weapon. As for the espionage, that kinda takes away the whole point of "see what the have after they show you" type deal thing. Maybe a dev will see this and consider it, though...

 

[Plague109]

From a gameplay perspective, I'd hate this idea as well. A major part of the fun of 4x space games is getting to use new and outlandish pieces of weaponry. Making a decision that penalizes me for having fun is...bad.

That's fair. I wouldn't suggest that a weapon specialization be mandatory as forcing a player to play a certain way is generally the worst.

 

[Xeorm]

That's fair. I wouldn't suggest that a weapon specialization be mandatory as forcing a player to play a certain way is generally the worst.

Well, if it's an advantage to use then it's effectively mandatory.

 

[Plague109]

Well, if it's an advantage to use then it's effectively mandatory.

The way I proposed it there would be a benefit (like 15% more laser damage/ firing speed/ opens new techs, etc....) and some malice (like -10% to all other weapon damage, fewer tech options for kinetic/missiles/fighters, and the threat of potentially being countered by your rival). It would require some thought as to whether the specialization was worth it in your current position.

 

[Shaktari]

I like the idea, sort of, i think it would just be this race has a knack for accuracy with lasers or missiles or kinetics, and maybe a light bonus to researching. I dont think it would affect range, or speed, and actual damage.
the reason for this is that, this isn't the difference between learning how to swing a sword, dagger, or hammer, or learning the difference between using a bow, crossbow, and gun. this is the difference between do i hit the blue button to fire the missiles, or the red button to fire the lasers. Almost all of the actual process of the weapon firing and doing the damage has nothing to do with how well you push the button.

 

[KonradKurze202]

This is already in the game, to a certain extent. There are repeatable techs that increase specific weapon damage, armor efficiency, etc. There is no need for additional 'training' foci. After all firing a weapon is pushing a button, there isn't all that much better one can get at pushing a button.

 

[Plague109]

I like the idea, sort of, i think it would just be this race has a knack for accuracy with lasers or missiles or kinetics, and maybe a light bonus to researching. I dont think it would affect range, or speed, and actual damage.
the reason for this is that, this isn't the difference between learning how to swing a sword, dagger, or hammer, or learning the difference between using a bow, crossbow, and gun. this is the difference between do i hit the blue button to fire the missiles, or the red button to fire the lasers. Almost all of the actual process of the weapon firing and doing the damage has nothing to do with how well you push the button.

The way I thought of it was more along the lines of your military high command may wish to advance your empires competency with lasers by focusing research in laser technology. If the research was met with success the military high command would instruct all branches of the military to adopt lasers, making them the primary weapon of the empire. This is because of uniformity and ease of maintenance, supplying ammunition, and mass production of accepted weapons. This would result in your ground forces adopting lasers weapons, your navies designing hulls specifically to fire laser weapons by focusing less on recoil and more on energy capacity. While I understand this is a RP reason I feel it would add more flavor to the empire. When I think of sci-fi movies, shows, games, etc... I don't think of a random assortment of weapon types. Instead I envision a uniform weapon type be it lasers or whatever. While from a game play perspective I fully understand why it may be more appropriate to go with a "whatever is best in the moment" kind of philosophy a more realistic approach would be to adopt certain technologies and sculpt strategies and military doctrines around them.

 

[Plague109]

This is already in the game, to a certain extent. There are repeatable techs that increase specific weapon damage, armor efficiency, etc. There is no need for additional 'training' foci. After all firing a weapon is pushing a button, there isn't all that much better one can get at pushing a button.

Agreed, though I feel it is less the pushing of the button and more of a focus on intense research that yields minor breakthroughs. These breakthroughs allow for the manufacture of more accurate, damaging, longer range weapons. The cost of which is an abandonment of other weapon type research of course.

 

[Shaktari]

The way I thought of it was more along the lines of your military high command may wish to advance your empires competency with lasers by focusing research in laser technology. If the research was met with success the military high command would instruct all branches of the military to adopt lasers, making them the primary weapon of the empire. This is because of uniformity and ease of maintenance, supplying ammunition, and mass production of accepted weapons. This would result in your ground forces adopting lasers weapons, your navies designing hulls specifically to fire laser weapons by focusing less on recoil and more on energy capacity. While I understand this is a RP reason I feel it would add more flavor to the empire. When I think of sci-fi movies, shows, games, etc... I don't think of a random assortment of weapon types. Instead I envision a uniform weapon type be it lasers or whatever. While from a game play perspective I fully understand why it may be more appropriate to go with a "whatever is best in the moment" kind of philosophy a more realistic approach would be to adopt certain technologies and sculpt strategies and military doctrines around them.

I get that, but at the same time in a sci-fi setting some effects are more based on tech level then the actual weapon you are using. If species A discovers red lasers and builds a red laser gun, when species B discovers them same thing its going to have almost identical stats as the one species A discovered. the only thing that might change is size of weapon, ease of manufacturing, ease of moving up a tech level, that sort of thing.


I like the idea, i am just not sure we agree on where the bonuses should go ^.^ if that makes sense, and also keep in mind those bonuses are going to be like only 5% in any given area to match the rest of the bonuses paradox tends to give.

 

[Trithemius]

From a gameplay perspective. What happens if I don't select a focus? Sure I don't get a bonus, but I also don't get a malus and honestly being flexible in my warmongering is much too valuable to pass up.

Agreed. This makes choosing generic approaches basically a non-choice I would think. Very non-Paradox Design Philosophy.