Weapon efficiency

[Jade_Rook]

I need to put up more large laser builds. I can mount 2 large lasers and a reasonable amount of heat sinks (including the engine sinks) to run them well for the same tonnage as an AC/10.

Actually, I think the best loadouts are going to be mixed, 1 heavy energy and 1 ballistic plus some short range weapons.

 

[Pyske]

I need to put up more large laser builds. I can mount 2 large lasers and a reasonable amount of heat sinks (including the engine sinks) to run them well for the same tonnage as an AC/10.

Actually, I think the best loadouts are going to be mixed, 1 heavy energy and 1 ballistic plus some short range weapons.

In the same weight? I'd love to see it.

14 tons: A/C 10 w/ 2 tons ammo = 60 dmg, 15 heat, leaving 15 spare engine cooling for other weapons.
In that same 14 tons, 2 LL + 4 HS = 80 dmg, 60 heat, yielding 18 excess heat per turn.

How is that comparable?

 

[Hiruma Kai]

Coming from the table top, I'm just a little bit sad dual-PPC builds look to just be a bad idea in this game. In one table top campaign I had fun tinkering with a mech that will not be named that weighed 75 tons and came with two PPCs standard among other things.

A Blackjack or Hunchback do a reasonable 4/6/4 movement dual AC/5 sniper (30 heat sink capacity vs max 50 - fire every turn and jump every 3rd turn works out). Trying to do that with dual PPCs seems crazy (42 heat sink capacity vs ~110 heat). Even trying to do a 4/6/4 with PPC and AC/5 is going to tend to be inferior to the dual AC/5 build (36 heat sink capacity vs ~90) in terms of sustained damage output. Especially with a Guts 5 pilot reducing the recoil penalty. Or fighting on a moon. 65% efficiency still lets you sink dual AC/5s no problem if you're not jumping while the same can't be said of a single PPC, making the mixed build worse there.

Plus triple AC/5 builds or double AC/10 builds are quite doable once you hit heavies. Jagermech can do a triple AC/5 with only 1 ton off from canonical max armor. A Victor can potentially pull off a 4/6/4 triple AC/5 build by shaving off 4 tons of armor. Moves like a blackjack, armored like a Shadowhawk, 135 damage and 30 stability damage out to 540m. Jump or Fire and you're heat neutral. You can do both occasionally. Or even an Orion can do a dual AC/10 build that sinks all its heat each turn. The same Orion trying to do a PPC, 7 heat sinks, and AC/10 is overheating by 4 each turn and doing less damage with mis-matched ranged brackets. The Orion with dual PPC with 14 heat sinks is overheating by 8 each turn, doing less damage, but reaching out 90 more meters. The dual AC/10 build is flexible enough to operate on a 0.65 heat modifier world roughly as well as the dual PPC one does on a normal world. On that 0.65 heat modifier world you just leave the dual PPCs home (overheat by ~33 per turn firing both, heat neutral firing just 1).

Lastly, AC/10s with damage improvements can headcap out 450m. I have a feeling I'm going to be running alot of ACs and LRMs for long range, and alot of Medium lasers and SRMs for short range (and the occasional AC/20 for damage concentration). Not so much large lasers and PPCs.

Although perhaps I'm under estimating the amount of ammo needed in late game, 5 skull missions (1 ton for 15 AC/5 shots, 2 tons for 20 shots of AC/10s).

 

[Stormforge]

In the same weight? I'd love to see it.

14 tons: A/C 10 w/ 2 tons ammo = 60 dmg, 15 heat, leaving 15 spare engine cooling for other weapons.
In that same 14 tons, 2 LL + 4 HS = 80 dmg, 60 heat, yielding 18 excess heat per turn.

How is that comparable?

Not only that but any other weapons added to the LL build will need their own heat sinks. Granted the LL gets an accuracy bonus, but the AC gets Stability damage. Stability which is huge in this game. A mech using lasers can never knock down another mech unless it uses melee.

 

[Jade_Rook]

In the same weight? I'd love to see it.

14 tons: A/C 10 w/ 2 tons ammo = 60 dmg, 15 heat, leaving 15 spare engine cooling for other weapons.
In that same 14 tons, 2 LL + 4 HS = 80 dmg, 60 heat, yielding 18 excess heat per turn.

How is that comparable?

Yep, and I am fine with that heat. 5 additional heat sinks would work better (45 cooling), but 4 is doable.

With 2 large lasers and 15 heat sinks a mech will be doing 80 damage in 2 chunks for 3 rounds without overheating. Then it can switch to 1-2 firing pattern indefinitely or take a turn repositioning with Sprint, being defensive with Brace or using melee to cool off. Comparing that to the AC/10 which is doing 60 damage (+stability), but requires ammo and if it is firing every turn the AC has 3 points worse accuracy (recoil and the laser accuracy bonus). That... looks pretty comparable to me.

With 14 heat sinks, it is 2 rounds of firing before having to stagger shots and can't quite completely cool with a single large laser shot, so it will steadily be going up in heat. Will have to use more mobility, but still entirely viable with a mobile medium like a Griffin (just be careful with jumping).

Against a fairly static opponent that doesn't generate a lot of evasion, like heavies or assaults, I am leaning towards the AC/10. The accuracy difference won't be as much of an issue. Against mobile mediums and lights... the large lasers look better.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Coming from the table top, I'm just a little bit sad dual-PPC builds look to just be a bad idea in this game. In one table top campaign I had fun tinkering with a mech that will not be named that weighed 75 tons and came with two PPCs standard among other things.

A Blackjack or Hunchback do a reasonable 4/6/4 movement dual AC/5 sniper (30 heat sink capacity vs max 50 - fire every turn and jump every 3rd turn works out). Trying to do that with dual PPCs seems crazy (42 heat sink capacity vs ~110 heat). Even trying to do a 4/6/4 with PPC and AC/5 is going to tend to be inferior to the dual AC/5 build (36 heat sink capacity vs ~90) in terms of sustained damage output. Especially with a Guts 5 pilot reducing the recoil penalty. Or fighting on a moon. 65% efficiency still lets you sink dual AC/5s no problem if you're not jumping while the same can't be said of a single PPC, making the mixed build worse there.

Plus triple AC/5 builds or double AC/10 builds are quite doable once you hit heavies. Jagermech can do a triple AC/5 with only 1 ton off from canonical max armor. A Victor can potentially pull off a 4/6/4 triple AC/5 build by shaving off 4 tons of armor. Moves like a blackjack, armored like a Shadowhawk, 135 damage and 30 stability damage out to 540m. Jump or Fire and you're heat neutral. You can do both occasionally. Or even an Orion can do a dual AC/10 build that sinks all its heat each turn. The same Orion trying to do a PPC, 7 heat sinks, and AC/10 is overheating by 4 each turn and doing less damage with mis-matched ranged brackets. The Orion with dual PPC with 14 heat sinks is overheating by 8 each turn, doing less damage, but reaching out 90 more meters. The dual AC/10 build is flexible enough to operate on a 0.65 heat modifier world roughly as well as the dual PPC one does on a normal world. On that 0.65 heat modifier world you just leave the dual PPCs home (overheat by ~33 per turn firing both, heat neutral firing just 1).

Lastly, AC/10s with damage improvements can headcap out 450m. I have a feeling I'm going to be running alot of ACs and LRMs for long range, and alot of Medium lasers and SRMs for short range (and the occasional AC/20 for damage concentration). Not so much large lasers and PPCs.

Although perhaps I'm under estimating the amount of ammo needed in late game, 5 skull missions (1 ton for 15 AC/5 shots, 2 tons for 20 shots of AC/10s).

I modded reduced damage and knock for missiles, and took everything down to tabletop standards on Heat (except for MLas. MLas are fine). Also gave the lasers a bit more accuracy buff.

I still swear by Missiles, and I don't run out at 10-12 rounds per launcher on my LRMs in 5 skull missions, even the typical '8 Assault v your lance' 5 Skull Missions. I just feel less dirty.

 

[Harcagnel]

In Defense of Lasers…..

- All Mechs can dissipate 30 per turn.
- Walking is 5 heat, Running 10 heat, Jumping causes 7.5 heat per jump jet and stops stability
The threshold is 50% + 5% per point of Guts of the 'Mech's heat capacity'
The Mech also has an internal heat bank that holds 100 heat before shutting down your mech for a turn of restart, which also clears all your current evasion.
Mech Warrior with Guts 1-5 the internal damage threshold is 60.
Mech Warrior with Guts 6-8 the internal damage threshold is 75.
Mech Warrior with Guts 9-10 the internal damage threshold is 90.
- 20 points per bar segment, 100 points total.
Activating a unit reduces stability by 20, Standing still or reserving with Master Tactician removes another 20 stability.
Bracing restores all stability except the -20 stability red pip for a lost leg.
(jumping, walking, and running do not reduce or increase stability gain or lose as far as I know)

The Key take away here it that a light mech with 2 medium lasers and two jump jets can jump and shoot 12 rounds, or 3 medium lasers walking 12 rounds without overheating or the need for a single added heat sink to suffer negative effects. While laser weapons don't do stability damage (except the PPC), The mechs basically have 510 point of heat that can use as ammo inherently where rockets and ballistics need ammo for the first weapon. If you have a sniper panther for example with a single PPC burning 35 heat a turn standing on a hill dissipating 30 and banking 5, it also would be able to fire 12 turns. Having Mechwarrior pilot with 8 guts gaining Ability: Coolant Vent (-50 + 24, creating 26 heat positive gain every 4 turn > 5 heat per turn) makes any of these builds able to fire indefinitely as long as they don't sprint and they remember to use the free vent action once they have a little heat. This is without extra "ammo" in the form of 2 heat sinks which will do the same thing. You can also mitigate heat with melee attacks which you can do with an activation, standing still, and with out generating any heat for a +40 stabilization and -30 heat gain. +20 activation and -25 heat gain if you walk. This provides two 3 strong mechanics to support laser weapons heat mitigation (Laser Ammo) over ballistic and missile ammo packs which both add weight as well as risk exploding when hit.

I am not saying Lasers are superior all around just that Damage / weight + ammo weight Is likely the more accurate measurement of all weapons until you get to heavy and assault mechs because of 30 natural heat dissipation + 60 Mechwarrior threshold + melee attacks for heat cool down that is universal to all mechs. Even a locust with 15 melee damage using its speed to target a side with an damaged leg or low armored rear can be effective if not always reliable. More so when you add even one 5 heat small laser (which they all have a spot for in the Center Torso).

 

[tobias.mb]

C'mon don't necro threads. Especially if the mechanics discussed are already obsolete (balancing of weapons, especially laser heat, changed a lot in Flashpoint).

 

[Harcagnel]

C'mon don't necro threads. Especially if the mechanics discussed are already obsolete (balancing of weapons, especially laser heat, changed a lot in Flashpoint).

So would it be better for me to duplicate the thread with a new one on the same topic? I mean, I thought the etiquette was to search if it had been discussed before and add to that thread instead of rehashing old discussions from scratch and having people post the same comments multiple times. I mean, that's annoying right?

Also, I haven't see anything on heat mechanics changes (-30 default, 100 mech max, Guts mechwarrior threshold, melee causing no heat but perhaps 5 for walking). So, is anything I had to add irrelevant? Is there a thread on the Flash point weapons changes? Because when I went looking this is the best I could find. So ... I mean, if you have that information about flash point changes... that is why I am HERE and posting on this thread. If you have a thread on it ... I can move there...

Also, the game is a year old by 5 days... I always considered any relevant thread not older than a year fair game. So ... I was close... but in bounds.

 

[Ark Evensong]

This necro is problematic mostly because the information in the rest if the thread wrong/outdated by now. Especially that OP with the nice tables 'n all.
So yeah, better indeed to find a more recent one, or start a new one.

You're wrong on a couple of points:

Walking is NO heat, Running is 5. Can't Run and Fire.
Jump Jet (max) heat is 5, plus 5 per JJ. (Except for the 8th, which only adds 3)
"The threshold is 50% + 5% per point of Guts of the 'Mech's heat capacity'"
Uh, that was from back during the Backer Beta, which was supplanted by ... what you wrote 2-4 lines below that.

As for changes since before the Necro:
Coolant Vent is a 'new' 1.3 ability, replacing Juggernaut.

Weapon heat was rebalanced all over in, I want to say 1.2?, but the biggest impact was for the energy weapons.

SL costs 6 heat, ML 12, LL 18. PPC 35 (From 5/10/30/40 at launch)
Autocannon heat was adjusted slightly as well. 4/8/12/24 (From 5/10/15/25)
LRMs 6/10/14/18 (From 6/12/15/18)
SRMs 4/8/12 (From 6/8/14)

Biggest takeaways: Boating ML is bit harder now. LL pretty good. PPC useable.
LRM10 is still the 'worst', but only marginally so. LRM15 is now most efficient.
SRMs don't favor the SRM4 anymore.

Stability got a rework as well, but I'm not a 100% on how it works nowadays. Weight class enters into it.
Pretty sure Jumping lowers stability a lot less than walking/or running. (Not sure if old or new)

 

[tobias.mb]

So would it be better for me to duplicate the thread with a new one on the same topic?

Check the forum rules: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?help/terms
On necro:

Posting in threads that are over 6 months old (also known as "necro/necromancy posting") is frowned upon and if you have come across a thread relating to your issue that is this old, please make a new thread about the issue.

So yes, you should have started a new thread. Also, the previous post explains it already very well, so I won't go into detail again, but every post before you is talking about values (especially heat on energy weapons) that have changed since then. e.g. you'll find a few posts talking about how LL are too hot. But that's talking about the old 30 heat not the new 18 heat.
How are these posts at all relevant to any disussion now?

 

[Havamal]

Greetings Mechwarriors,

Let's be judicious when posting in old threads.

Mechanics for example an least can change over time.

That's why there's popup warning when we try to Necro post.

Locked.

Thanks.