Wealth of Nations Dev Diary 3: Companies and Canals

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Wudadi

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China) is something we considered, but it just didny work mechanically brcause its too big.
What is the real function of the canal? Trading. Transport goods and people. Do most of the rivers have these function? If rivers have these function, releasing all of the canals are not enough. EU4 should Release most of the main rivers just like CK2. Some of EU3 mods had released Yangtze River in the game. It is true that some historic battle in the main rivers and canals. Therefore, why don't you put the boat into the main river? I think it will be more interesting.;) If you block the river zone, you can't through this province.:eek:hmy:
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Suez Canal... I can't really say for whether it might be plausible to construct it in pre-industrial or at least early industrial era but such possibility would hold a huge strategic value and make control of entire Mediterranean sea more important for Western European powers who has colonies east of Suez. It would mean a shorter route for transferring naval ships between Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean which is an attractive feature for an European power that need to defend its possessions east of Suez, particularly in India, as well a shorter route for transporting troops from home to colonies there. No doubt that if I wish to build an European empire east of Suez, control of Suez route and a possibility of building a canal would be too important to ignore. This would be a game-changer in building up such empire.

Also, while I can't say much about lack of direct control over Indian provinces by trade companies, I still think they should be able to raise their own troops to defend the provinces assigned to them even if they don't own it, because of the cost of defending those possessions that required additional troops. I'd prefer that the trade company pay for defense of their assigned provinces. It would save me some money in defending the India if they were to take on this burden. That's not to say I wouldn't provide some royal troops to reinforce them, though. After all, British did deployed British Army regiments to India to support Company troops. There may be some penalty, perhaps same as mercenaries, for Company troops.

Just some thoughts.
 

nalivayko

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I like the idea of Trading Companies, their zones, their roles... if only you could ... somehow... include RAC (Russian American Company), which operated primarily in America (which appears to be subject of colonies, not trading companies)...
 

airpirate

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I'll have to wait and see how the canal thing is executed before I make a judgement. The costs better be high though, and the events (especially in Panama) should lead to players cancelling the canal due to extreme costs from time to time.
 

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I'll have to wait and see how the canal thing is executed before I make a judgement. The costs better be high though, and the events (especially in Panama) should lead to players cancelling the canal due to extreme costs from time to time.

Since Paradox mentioned that there will be events during building of canal, I suspect there may be events that help or hurt progress in building this canal, perhaps like malaria outbreak event that would obviously break out often in Panama Canal province and would set back the canal construction pretty much. This may reduce attractiveness of building canal, especially for players who is financially constrained. On other hands, there may be a way to offset the financial risks by forming a company to undertake this project with shares owned by more than one nations, which might set up some interesting diplomatic events later on.

Another way that canal can create a interesting diplomatic scenario is when a nation controlling the canal might, similar to embargo action, close the canal to a particular nation, like one of their own rivals, which would be provocative and would give that nation a casus belli where they might demand either annexation of that canal province or reopening of that canal to them (think the Suez Crisis of 1956). There are various other possible scenarios, of course, once canal is completed.
 

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What is the real function of the canal? Trading. Transport goods and people. Do most of the rivers have these function? If rivers have these function, releasing all of the canals are not enough. EU4 should Release most of the main rivers just like CK2. Some of EU3 mods had released Yangtze River in the game. It is true that some historic battle in the main rivers and canals. Therefore, why don't you put the boat into the main river? I think it will be more interesting.;) If you block the river zone, you can't through this province.:eek:hmy:

Wudadi you are missing one point. During the game's time frame China was a monolith (with short exception during Ming-Qing dynasty change). With who is China going to fight with on those rivers and canals? I can understand that in mods that extend the time frame, but vanilla? It's a bit pointless.
 
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Homer2101

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Suez Canal... I can't really say for whether it might be plausible to construct it in pre-industrial or at least early industrial era but such possibility would hold a huge strategic value and make control of entire Mediterranean sea more important for Western European powers who has colonies east of Suez. It would mean a shorter route for transferring naval ships between Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean which is an attractive feature for an European power that need to defend its possessions east of Suez, particularly in India, as well a shorter route for transporting troops from home to colonies there. No doubt that if I wish to build an European empire east of Suez, control of Suez route and a possibility of building a canal would be too important to ignore. This would be a game-changer in building up such empire.

It would be perfectly plausible for the Suez Canal to exist prior to the industrial era, if only because it actually existed in the pre-industrial era in real life. By the 8th century BC, a canal linked Cairo to the Red Sea. But by 1000AD it had become silted up and was no longer navigable. Remains of that waterway were discovered by French surveyors around 1789.

From an engineering perspective, there's nothing terribly difficult about connecting the Red Sea and the Mediterranean. The water level of the two are sufficiently similar. and the terrain sufficiently flat, that no locks are required. Locks are a good idea to reduce the risk of invasive species migrating from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean, but that's not something anyone was seriously concerned about during the EU4 timeframe. In effect, the Suez is a giant ditch.

The great difficulty in building the Suez was due to opposing vested interests, political concerns, and lack of financing. Once British opposition to the canal was overcome, and funding secured, building the Suez was just a question of hiring workers.

In comparison, the Erie Canal was built between 1817 and 1825 with mules, dynamite and pickaxes. It has 35 locks, several viaducts, and a total elevation differential of 565 feet. It runs 363 miles from the Hudson River to the Great Lakes, through marshes, over rivers, and up escarpments.

In short, there's nothing implausible about major canals being built during the EU4 timeperiod.

Many canals still in use today were built in the last quarter of the EU4 timeperiod, because water transport was such an efficient way of moving goods. Even today, despite competition from railroads and trucks, water is the most efficient mode of transport for non-time-sensitive goods over any measurable distance. During the EU4 period, it was the only alternative to overland transport, and overland transport during the EU4 timeperiod was extremely expensive and dangerous relative to transport by ship and barge.

Second, building canals did not require modern industrial machinery; manpower accomplished the same thing, albeit at much greater human cost. The obstacle was usually the sheer expense of getting the project underway, the willpower required, and the lack of real need.
 

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Is there any scope for making colonial nations and trade companies OPTIONAL, rather than mandatory?
 

Xaioxaiofan

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Is there any scope for making colonial nations and trade companies OPTIONAL, rather than mandatory?
Trade companies are optional....

So, again we have divided parts of the world into a new type of regions but thats where the similarities ends. When you add provinces (something that you choose to do, and you can revoke it again) to a Trade Company you will still retain control of it but the way you gain benefits from it change.
 
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Masquinongy

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I just hope they do some serious changes to the use of ducats in WoN. Right now ducats are so easy to come by that the idea of an expansion specifically design at making more of them sounds about as useful as the dump I just took...Sure trade companies may be an interesting new mechanic for a while but ultimately money is the least valuable resource in the game right now.

I am fine with canals as long as they are tough to do. I imagine the building progress will be similar to the westernization mechanic.

It would be better IMO to make canals upgradable similar to other building chains. Perhaps level 1) galleys 2) trade ships 3) transports 4) heavy ships.
 

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Interesting. Will trade companies apply to Australia as well? I've also heard that Australia will be added a CN when WoN comes out. Are either of those true?
 

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It would be perfectly plausible for the Suez Canal to exist prior to the industrial era, if only because it actually existed in the pre-industrial era in real life. By the 8th century BC, a canal linked Cairo to the Red Sea. But by 1000AD it had become silted up and was no longer navigable. Remains of that waterway were discovered by French surveyors around 1789.

From an engineering perspective, there's nothing terribly difficult about connecting the Red Sea and the Mediterranean. The water level of the two are sufficiently similar. and the terrain sufficiently flat, that no locks are required. Locks are a good idea to reduce the risk of invasive species migrating from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean, but that's not something anyone was seriously concerned about during the EU4 timeframe. In effect, the Suez is a giant ditch.

The great difficulty in building the Suez was due to opposing vested interests, political concerns, and lack of financing. Once British opposition to the canal was overcome, and funding secured, building the Suez was just a question of hiring workers.

In comparison, the Erie Canal was built between 1817 and 1825 with mules, dynamite and pickaxes. It has 35 locks, several viaducts, and a total elevation differential of 565 feet. It runs 363 miles from the Hudson River to the Great Lakes, through marshes, over rivers, and up escarpments.

In short, there's nothing implausible about major canals being built during the EU4 timeperiod.

Many canals still in use today were built in the last quarter of the EU4 timeperiod, because water transport was such an efficient way of moving goods. Even today, despite competition from railroads and trucks, water is the most efficient mode of transport for non-time-sensitive goods over any measurable distance. During the EU4 period, it was the only alternative to overland transport, and overland transport during the EU4 timeperiod was extremely expensive and dangerous relative to transport by ship and barge.

Second, building canals did not require modern industrial machinery; manpower accomplished the same thing, albeit at much greater human cost. The obstacle was usually the sheer expense of getting the project underway, the willpower required, and the lack of real need.
Yep, any one of the Mamluks, Ottomans, Venetians or (maybe) one of the other Merchant republics in an Alt-history (to say nothing of e.g. a restored Roman Empire or say a crusader Spain) would have both the resources and the desire to build a canal; if only for the ability to control trade there and avoid needing to send fleets around Africa. In my current M&T Venice game I've got most of Egypt/Palestine and a string of colonies from Aden to Ceylon to Indonesia and Taiwan and have even begun to colonize California. I'm making between 300 to 800 (a very brief peak value) monthly from trade alone and another two hundred from tariffs. Having fully upgraded all the home provinces and at full forcelimits I'm still making hundreds of ducats a month and have nothing much to spend it on aside from spamming light ships to suck the various Asian nodes completely dry... and I very much imagine that a "Canal of the Pharoahs" proto suez would be an essential/immediate investment, in fact historically the Venetians did seriously consider the project on several occasions, for obvious reasons. If nothing else the fact that I've got only two/three red sea ports and a bunch of home ports means that I have more trouble crowding out e.g. Ayuthaya (?) in the Indochina node, which given how many entrepots the route has chained adds up to the fluctuations in trade value. Not being able to build my fleet in Italy and easily ship it overseas also hurts if I need a fleet or two over there.
And more importantly the canal can easily be expanded to other megaprojects that affect the map. Such as the Great Wall of China, perhaps. Or maybe a "Taj Mahal"/landmark that shows up after you build it.


I'm very much looking forward to this expansion, it will greatly improve "east-oriented" European playthroughs. I'd imagine Asian powers will also be more engaging, I'll end up building an Ottoman canal before too long:).
 

Liondrome

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Question.

Since canals tend to be rather small, should it not be near impossible for an enemy fleet to blockade it? They don't tend to be very wide and have usually some sort of defensive fortifications with heavy artillery because canals are key stratetic positions. So would it not make sense for canals to have an attrition level for navies blockading it, and it would require more then just one boat, since a single craft can't destroy lets say 100 tiny boats crossing the canal.

I'd almost say make it impossible for canals to be blockaded but I could see something like a royal navy blockading it quite well, requires a very sizeable navy, lets say the more ships you have the less attrition you take, since for example one cannon can wreck a single ship, but an armada can guard a canal very well. And if I may suggest, even with a blockade on something like a canal, give the troops a chance to cross it albeit with taking casualties, again, bigger the blockading fleet, the larger the casuelties. (The player would have the possibility to cross it even with the full Royal Navy guarding it but would have an insane casualty rate/attrition crossing it.
 

Jolanion

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If you're adding buildable canals, will you be adding buildable straights as well? Like, allow a country that controls both southern Iberia and northern Africa or southern India and Ceylon to construct a system of ferries and whatnot that'll end up functioning just like 'natural' straights.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Wudadi you are missing one point. During the game's time frame China was a monolith (with short exception during Ming-Qing dynasty change). With who is China going to fight with on those rivers and canals? I can understand that in mods that extend the time frame, but vanilla? It's a bit pointless.

Galleys sailing up in-game rivers to block troops from moving past would be one of the most deliciously asinine things ever though :D. I can already picture the threads about it.
 

jrgen3

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Sorry, I didn't see this dev diary until now. They were not on the front page so I assumed you had not started yet.
Canals will allow ships to sail through them, can be blocked by fleets[...]
How does this work exactly? Do you mean that canals can be blocked by ships and not the other way around? To me this makes no sense at all. Canals should block ships from going through when at war with the owner. This is the way it is in Victoria II and the way I was hoping you would do it in EUIV as well.