We will never have a Migrational Era game

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Austregisel

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I have been thinking of some points for a game that would be between Imperator: Rome and CK3, of course it would have to be one at the time of Atilla Total War, but Paradox will never make one in this era, we will have to settle for mods that unfortunately portrayed the era very superficially and with bad mechanics for this era.

1. First, because if we are going to talk about ck2 (perhaps similarly as ck3) and Imperator: Rome, an empire the size of the WRE or ERE would be absurdly unstoppable, in Imperator it would surely have over 100,000 professional soldiers, perhaps too much. more than that if you can control the borders of the empire, in CK2 this also happens, you can raise more than 100 thousand soldiers and have tens of thousands of retinues. And speaking of Atilla Total War, you will see that this is not possible, each Empire has its legions in each region.

2. Controlling a territory in one of these two games makes you rich, you earn a lot and you'll never be beaten, even if all the rest of the map joins you, basically it has no costs, all the buildings you make in CK2 or Imperator. there are no monthly maintenance or employee costs, you just pay and have your bonuses, while Total War has costs, whether cathedrals give more stability, military buildings, and other administrative, all these have costs, and you need to balance to not have regions that consume more than they give tax, (In Late Game this is different). In CK2 and Imperator as I said, there are no costs, either to pay your generals or governors, in ck2 for example the vassal troops are free, only earning -1 ratio per month.


3. The world is balanced, but why balanced? Simply because any Germanic or African tribe or Sassanid Empire can become a great enemy of the WRE or the ERE, in Britannia there is only 1 legion, the tribes invade it and would hardly defend themselves well. The same thing with several tribes invading the edges of the Empire, simply because AI sees weakness, it is costly to run a gigantic, multicultural empire, in ck2 and Imperator not, where the money you earn per month and the size of the army disables it. At Atilla TW it is not good to leave the Eastern border without legions, the Sassanid Empire and other nomads would be inclined to invade it, as it is not a good idea to remove them from there and send them to the Balkans or Egypt. In ck2 there is no such thing, just an army count that the empire can have, the borders having the least troops in its castles mean nothing, you would just leverage the army and send it all to fight and then send it to another region because the The system of wars really makes it impossible to lose in the war, you only have to regain the territories and ask for peace. In Atilla the territories are really taken over by the invaders. Just ask for white peace that everything they took is given back to you, not to loss.

To conclude, it is very easy to manage an empire of the magnitude of WRE and ERE in the closest games we have, no cost, the army is cheap, infinite manpower, and it is very easy to take troops from one place to another. The war system would have to be redone, it is a very specific era of the struggle between giant empire against uncivilized tribes invading on all sides. I have no hope of doing this for Paradox, the mods will do a little good, but if you put on the same mechanincas as usual, it was no use.

Neither of these two empires in either the CK2 or Imperator would be difficult to defend against neighboring tribes:
Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png
 

viola

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An hypothetical game set during the fall of the Roman Empire would have game mechanics completely different from those in other Paradox games, exactly because the theme of the era is the weakness of large empires compared to immensely smaller but more dynamic neighbours. I don't see how the mechanical problems other Paradox games have in regard to the stability of empires have anything to do with a theoretical Migration Era game that would be built with a completely different mentality in mind.
 

Austregisel

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An hypothetical game set during the fall of the Roman Empire would have game mechanics completely different from those in other Paradox games, exactly because the theme of the era is the weakness of large empires compared to immensely smaller but more dynamic neighbours. I don't see how the mechanical problems other Paradox games have in regard to the stability of empires have anything to do with a theoretical Migration Era game that would be built with a completely different mentality in mind.
It would have to be done from scratch, at the very least with other different mechanics, as you said, it is an era about the decay of empires against more dynamic neighbors, by no means do I see anything like this in CK2 (CK3) and Imperator, one of the biggest The problems I mentioned that make this worse is the increasing issue, the less costs you have, basically the buildings have no maintenance and employee costs, unlike Atilla where you need to balance more, because buildings like theaters, government buildings and churches It has high costs, be it maintenance or other factors, there is no such thing in CK2 and Imperator, just have money, army and infinite manpower.
 

Serenity84

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It's also a hugely complicated topic that's still disputed among historians. Traditionally games portray this as a brutal invasion by less advanced, unified peoples. That works well in a computer game, but it's not what happened. For example at various points Rome allied with these tribes (which were probably large armies instead of whole peoples), gave them land and had them fight for them. Instead of a swift fall it was a gradual weakening and decline.
 

Cephei80

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i think this era belong to imperator's game sphere , the core mechanics of migration and pillaging and using mercs (barbarians) and enslaving and ravaging are all there , all what they need is to work on this , and i think maybe after a year or two we will see this happening .
people were saying same about space UN for stellaris for way too long , even the devs kept it last because they didnt know how to implement such idea on stellaris but here we go 3 years later and we go the anouncement of something much better than what we were hopping for .
i dont think that making a proper game for such era as a wise and realisitic decision , imperator still have a full potential to show and i am sure it will surprise us just like how stellaris and ck2 did .
total war attila itself was nothing more than a rome 2 with an engine of destruction added to it + few minor bonuses additions .
 

Austregisel

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i think this era belong to imperator's game sphere , the core mechanics of migration and pillaging and using mercs (barbarians) and enslaving and ravaging are all there , all what they need is to work on this , and i think maybe after a year or two we will see this happening .
people were saying same about space UN for stellaris for way too long , even the devs kept it last because they didnt know how to implement such idea on stellaris but here we go 3 years later and we go the anouncement of something much better than what we were hopping for .
i dont think that making a proper game for such era as a wise and realisitic decision , imperator still have a full potential to show and i am sure it will surprise us just like how stellaris and ck2 did .
total war attila itself was nothing more than a rome 2 with an engine of destruction added to it + few minor bonuses additions .
Have you ever had an Imperator: Rome Empire the size of WRE? You make money you can't afford, you have more than 100,000 soldiers in legions that aren't over, you're basically unstoppable. This is also the difference of having an Empire in Rome II and Attila (No Early Game) the size of WRE, in Rome II you are unstoppable, money that never ends among other things, the significant change that led to Attila was Now the buildings are expensive, in Rome II they are not expensive, in Attila, yes. For Migrational It was at least enough to take away the impossibility of taking all your legions to the Franks border for example, they conquer Galia before you send them there, and of course I don't even have to, I need to of them in Africa, Hispania because they are territories that give money and also want to invade, in Imperator Rome it is not necessary to separate the army, since if they invade you from North Africa, it is only you come back and get white peace, at Jo Atilla if take North Africa, then it was, this region is no longer yours, you need to regain it, and it's much harder so, you really lose territory, in Imperator Rome not.
 

Gurkhal

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As a medium fan of Attila: Total War I agree mostly with what's been said. In addition to that I think that Paradox should make an Age of Migration game but it would presumably need a new perspective since we're, in the case of the Roman Empires, talking about huge giants slowing drowning while various tribes and such would play like a normal Paradox player's choice (start small and grow) even if it would be against a declining titant as opposed to swallow smaller foes in the start.
 

Krajzen

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Let's go slightly further. A game with timespan:
- start date: between 380 and 476 AD
- end date: between 740 and 867 AD

1 ) Fall of western Roman empire - made almost inevitable and incredibly hard to prevent as a player, in almost all games AI western rome collapses, the question is how and who remains. Alternately the game could simply start in 476 already or in the middle of collapse, seeing how it relies on its fall.
2) Mechanics of large collapsing empires
3) Mechanics and large focus on migrating peoples and small tribes
4) Mechanics of cultural assimilation and syncretism
5) Mechanics of plague, depopulation, economic decline etc
6) Mechanics of dynamically arising new countries and cultures
7) Rise of Islam in 600s which has additional benefit of providing wonderful endgame 'apocalypse' (if you can name incredibly advanced medieval Muslim civilization an apocalyse). Special bookmark so you can play as them too.
8) Depending on how far do you wanna go, possibly even rise of Charlemagne (since we won't see it in ck3)
9) Monasticism and preserving or even trying to rebuild Roman civilization
10) The amazing feature of this period is a lot of historical invasions that could serce as endgame challenge. Besides Islam you get also Rise of Slavs, Bulgars, Avars, Vikings and Central Asian horses.
11) Play in very exotic British Isles where numerous Celtic, Roman and Germanic cultures clash among numerous kingdoms!
12) Play as Byzantium and face very difficult gameplay of having to face powerful Sassanid Persia, countless 'barbarians', Gothic kingdoms and ultimately Islam (genius general Khalid ibn al Walid will make you cry)
13) Play as zoroastrian Sassanid Persia at height of its imperial power and try to take down Byzantine empire!
14) Play as newly Christianized Armenia in horrible challenge of trying to emerge from between Byz and Persia!
15) The map includes Central Asia with its fascinating melting pot of cultures and religions (zoroatrianism, buddhism, manicheism, christian churches, paganism).
16) The map includes India which has many great empires and cultural achievements in this era. Maybe Europe collapses into barbarism, here we have flourishing science and art.
17) The map also includes China and that'd be amazing era in this regard - between 380 and 476 China was divided among many diverse kingdoms and faced challenges from Tibet and Huns. Try to unite it like Tang dynasty did and be amazed at the first time in series China doesn't start boringly overpowered.
18) Damn it, let's add Korea too, it was also very interesting period here.
 

viola

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It would have to be done from scratch
Yes, obviously. You can't make a Migration era game with CK mechanics, that's kinda self-evident.

I still don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. The problems CK and Imperator have with large empires would not be the problems a Migration Era game would have due to being built fundamentally different from those games.
 

Austregisel

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Yes, obviously. You can't make a Migration era game with CK mechanics, that's kinda self-evident.

I still don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. The problems CK and Imperator have with large empires would not be the problems a Migration Era game would have due to being built fundamentally different from those games.
Basically, it would be that Paradox never made mechanics aimed at managing a declining Empire, only mechanics for the growth of some kingdom, tribe or state for an unstoppable Empire. That is, paint the map, so I find it very difficult a game that you have to try to keep the Empire alive, instead of just conquering the rest of the map.
 

Will Steel

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I would've loved to play as Gupta Empire, considering it was almost more powerful than Rome and Persia combined at this stage. But sadly we won't get any game on that timeline on Paradox mechanisms, and that is completely understandable.

I agree on the point about Paradox mechanisms not modeling the complex scenario of declining empires and civilizations. Not without putting ahistorical modifiers and limits (India in CK2, Ming in EU4 etc.) or bonking playability completely with no complex mecahnisms...And without those mechanisms, a late antiquity game is impossible.

Total War Attila is a great game for that era anyway, since it is very much a survival-style wargame. That and RTW:BI and maybe one other game whose name I don't remember, they are best for this scenario. You can paint the map and be stomped into the dust by tribes and nomads, they are still fun. A Paradox game would require a major rewrite of a lot of concepts, and CK3 wouldn't be able to handle them.

CK3 should stick to 867-1492 mainstream medieval timeline.
 

omega20056

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An hypothetical game set during the fall of the Roman Empire would have game mechanics completely different from those in other Paradox games, exactly because the theme of the era is the weakness of large empires compared to immensely smaller but more dynamic neighbours. I don't see how the mechanical problems other Paradox games have in regard to the stability of empires have anything to do with a theoretical Migration Era game that would be built with a completely different mentality in mind.
It could be done well if decay and corruption are properly represented. And don't forget, the era isn't just about the Roman Empire. Byzantium and the Sassanids were fine for most of the Migration Era, and the development of the barbarian kingdoms would be a good scenario. Empires should have to struggle to keep control, however, and central to the game should be the fight to keep decay from setting in and your empire from fracturing.
 

ray243

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It could be done well if decay and corruption are properly represented. And don't forget, the era isn't just about the Roman Empire. Byzantium and the Sassanids were fine for most of the Migration Era, and the development of the barbarian kingdoms would be a good scenario. Empires should have to struggle to keep control, however, and central to the game should be the fight to keep decay from setting in and your empire from fracturing.

Or they can make military expansions a remarkably dangerous and risky venture. They should be insanely expensive, with high risk of failure.
 

Allu

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Some of my favourite things in ck2 are the fantasy/questionable history/alt-history things. The amount of cool characters from this period is huge but they're not historical enough to really fit into ck3 so it would be very interesting