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Avindian

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((The thought of Stalin being on the Senate floor frightens me...))

((I seriously doubt Stalin would come to the US; we'd meet on neutral ground or in Moscow, but given how much Stalin whined and complained when they wanted to set one of the big conferences in the Western Hemisphere IRL... I wouldn't hold my breath. :)))
 

shierholzer

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after all, IRL, Poland was moved 100 miles to the west to accommodate the USSR
Nope. Before the USSR, there was no 'Poland' for a couple of centuries. Western Poland equals land, which was controlled by Germany (and maybe AH, not sure) pre 1918, while Eastern Poland was governed by the Russians for centuries. In the war of 1919/1920 (btw a war of polish aggression), Poland grabbed the part we're voting about, mainly because the soviets were still in civil war.

My intent, if it's a diplomatic conference, would be to role play Stalin and respond to Senate proposals.
I read that before.
However, there is NO possibility to get both of them diplomatically. The only halfway realistic chance is to exchange Poland for Romania (either giveaway Romania and grab Eastern Poland or giveaway Western Poland and grab Bessarabia).
 

Avindian

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100 miles to the west relative to the Poland established after the Russian Civil War. You're quite correct that Poland ceases to exist as an independent nation after the third partition in 1795 (unless you count the Russian fiction of "Congress Poland" or the Napoleonic "Grand Duchy of Warsaw", which I do not.)

Kilia is one province; we aren't looking for the entirety of Bessarabia, just enough to satisfy the victory condition. (I'm not sure Kilia should even be part of Operation Zeppelin to begin with.)
 

shierholzer

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Kilia is one province; we aren't looking for the entirety of Bessarabia, just enough to satisfy the victory condition. (I'm not sure Kilia should even be part of Operation Zeppelin to begin with.)
Historically this was an everything or nothing matter. Both allies and comintern would have moved the entirety of Bessarabia, mostly because of the river lines there.
 

SovietAmerika

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Historically this was an everything or nothing matter. Both allies and comintern would have moved the entirety of Bessarabia, mostly because of the river lines there.

(We're the US. To Hell with borders matching with rivers!))
 

Avindian

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Historically this was an everything or nothing matter. Both allies and comintern would have moved the entirety of Bessarabia, mostly because of the river lines there.

Historically, yes; however, I don't wish to make this more complicated than it needs to be. It looks like, in real life, the Soviets kept this particular area anyway, so I'm not certain why it's even in the game as a victory condition. (Calling it Operation Zeppelin also makes no sense.) Honestly, if I could, I'd edit the game so Kilia's not part of the victory condition -- this isn't about historical correctness so much as something inadequately modeled by FTM and the victory condition itself. From the Wikipedia article, Kilia isn't even that strategically significant (apart from being a port).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiliya,_Ukraine

If you know of a way to easily edit the victory condition, we can drop Kilia altogether and focus entirely on Poland.
 

Avindian

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I'm moving the poll to this page to remind people we're still voting.

Kilia?
Diplomatic solution: 6
War: 5

Poland?
Diplomacy: 6
War: 5
 

shierholzer

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(We're the US. To Hell with borders matching with rivers!))
Nobody would ever grab a single county behind a river from his enemy by force. If Stalin came to me and said:
'I don't like this county, they're making me mad, please take them for free.' I would first consider if this is a trap, before taking that county.
Just remember, we're not talking about the small rivers Germany crossed in the Netherlands by paras, we're talking about the Danube in the West and the Vltava in the East, both quite big rivers.
 

Avindian

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I've thought about this a good bit now, and here's what we'll do. In the event that we vote for a diplomatic solution in Kilia, I'm going to edit the save (or shierholzer can make the event). It's just silly that one province is holding us back and that it's randomly part of the war goal. It may not be the most satisfying outcome, historically, but in the interest of keeping the thread on track and not getting bogged down in details, that's what we'll do. Poland is obviously a much bigger issue.

((Can somebody help me find the province ID for Kilia?))
 

Avindian

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((Thanks! I don't know why so many Soviet/Eastern European provinces just got the "PROV_number" treatment in the game files.))

Would anyone mind to at least level the Poland vote to 6-6?
Thank you :)

((You'd need two votes; in the event of a tie, I vote (as VP) and I can almost certainly say I'd vote against war. ;))

5.5 hours to vote! If you haven't voted already, please do so.
 
Last edited:

shierholzer

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((Thanks! I don't know why so many Soviet/Eastern European provinces just got the "PROV_number" treatment in the game files.))
Don't ever look after province names in history/provinces.
The names are accurate as of 1.00, but some id's changed without the name in the mean time.
If you want to be sure look in localisation/province_names.csv.
 

Avindian

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Don't ever look after province names in history/provinces.
The names are accurate as of 1.00, but some id's changed without the name in the mean time.
If you want to be sure look in localisation/province_names.csv.

Ah hah! Thanks for the advice.
 

Avindian

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Voting is closed. We will pursue a diplomatic option with the USSR re: Poland. I'm going to fix the save for Kilia.

To this end, any enterprising Senator can come up with a proposal. Every proposal signed by at least two Senators will go to a big vote later on; the winning proposal will be formally considered by Stalin/Molotov (i.e. me). If there's a counter-proposal, we'll vote on that too.

shierholzer, Novatheorem, go ahead and start working on plans for the next two months; we're not going to be declaring war on the USSR by then anyway. dresdor, Gen. Marshall, Matt Adler, go ahead and put together a budget proposal for your departments. That includes technology and IC. We have 467 IC and 40 leadership. Evaluate what you think you'd need against the Soviets/Japan; if push comes to shove, we'll just have more than we need.

I'd like initial diplomatic proposals, budget drafts, and plans by Saturday at 10 PM (-6 GMT).
 

SovietAmerika

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*Sinclaire stands up, reading from some of her papers.* I have a proposal, ladies and gentlemen. It's not too much, but I believe it will lay the foundation of what we desire.

1. As the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed between the Axis and the Comintern, the dissolution of the Third Reich renders the contract null and void. All annexations performed by the Soviets thanks to this pact must be reversed, as it is still considered collaboration with Hitler. Kresy will be returned to Poland, Bessarabia will be returned to Romania, and the Baltic states will be liberated and allowed to run free elections to decide if they prefer capitalism or communism.
2. Stalin will respect the nations that defected to the Allies during the European theatre. Apart from those who served under the cabinets of Fascists governments, their citizens will not be penalized under any condition whatsoever.
3. As the Soviets defeated them, Finland will be recognized as a Soviet ally. However, they must be returned the land stolen from them in the Winter War, as it was approved by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
4. The Soviets will not only recognize the new governments established democratically in Europe, but they will also even recognize the new Federal Republican of Germany.
5. Next, the state of Poland will be a neutral buffer in between the Allies and the Comintern. Poland has suffered too long under international politics, and as such, they deserve independence once and for all.
6. Finally, all POWS belonging to the Soviet Union will be returned to their homeland in return for all European POWS located in the Soviet Union. These men deserve to see their families again, and no not deserve to suffer under their old governments' mistakes. On the same hand, we understand the desire for the Soviets to see their boys again. When it comes to prisoners who violated any war laws, they will be tried appropriately.

*Sinclaire sits down and smiles, waiting for a reply.*

- Sen. Elexis Sinclaire (R - MA)
 

shierholzer

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shierholzer, Novatheorem, go ahead and start working on plans for the next two months; we're not going to be declaring war on the USSR by then anyway.
Do we've chance to go to war with the soviets? If Stalin refuses because our offers are too bad?
If yes, there's a plenty to do for me.
If not, I've only three orders:
Disable AI, in all but Forth Army. Set Forth Army objective to all VP in Bulgaria.
Put the Vichy orders to an end.
Send our boys home.
 

Avindian

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I'll leave that up to you -- if we go to war with the Soviets (and yes, an offer like the one above could, without some effective counter proposals, lead to war), would you want to declare war right away, or have a couple of months to get troops in the right places?
 

shierholzer

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I'll leave that up to you -- if we go to war with the Soviets (and yes, an offer like the one above could, without some effective counter proposals, lead to war), would you want to declare war right away, or have a couple of months to get troops in the right places?
So the possibility for war with the soviets exists.
Then I'd like to request a longer deadline till Wednesday 10PM (-6 GMT), since this order will include a major reorganization of the forces in ATLCOM (I talked with Gen Marshall already). Also Gen Marshall will need to wait with the budget till I'm ready, since most of my orders are going to be single brigades missing somewhere.
((Would you mind, if I do my orders with an editor and send you the updated save? Much fewer unnecessary text to write, and much fewer possible errors.))
 

Gen. Marshall

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((If you send me a bit of clarifying text about what you did, I'll make a monster USAAF/Atlantic/Pacific plan clarification as to comply to the DOPE Act. And now I know where those screenies came from - What's the name of that editor?))

General,

Given the re-organization that Atlantic forces require, I will back your request to extend the deadline. I would require you and General Geiger to send your plans to me by Sunday 14:00 hours GMT / 8AM (-6 GMT), though.

Also, I'll be so rude as to annex at least 267 IC and 20 Leadership for Army/Air Force purposes, to prepare for the war with the Soviet Union. Any changes in this will be discussed with the President and my fellow Chief of the Navy.

- Field Marshal G. Marshall
Chief of the US Army & Air Force
 
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