We need standardized tank numbers per battalion

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Hoi Neuling

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If you wanna only have 3 to 10 Tank-Divisions in the fully Game, then go back to V. 1.10.8 and play that without the new Features and Realistics.

If you wanna like historical Tank-Divisions (what the Devs did with this Version and DLC) then play V. 1.11. +-Versions incl. the availible and upcomming DLCs.

Don´t have the Nerve to look for the Numbers now, but no more then 100 to 120 Tanks were in such a Division devided in 4 to 6 Battalions. Means 20 to 25 normal (Standard) Tanks Maximum per Batallion, which are in an Division (dosen´t matter which Country) get reached.

The mobile AT, AA, Ari etc. get lesser or the same Numbers.

More Questions?

No!

Very Good, then we understand.
 
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Caldingo92

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If you wanna only have 3 to 10 Tank-Divisions in the fully Game, then go back to V. 1.10.8 and play that without the new Features and Realistics.

If you wanna like historical Tank-Divisions (what the Devs did with this Version and DLC) then play V. 1.11. +-Versions incl. the availible and upcomming DLCs.

Don´t have the Nerve to look for the Numbers now, but no more then 100 to 120 Tanks were in such a Division devided in 4 to 6 Battalions. Means 20 to 25 normal (Standard) Tanks Maximum per Batallion, which are in an Division (dosen´t matter which Country) get reached.

The mobile AT, AA, Ari etc. get lesser or the same Numbers.

More Questions?

No!

Very Good, then we understand.
The average number of tanks in a German panzer division at the start of Barbarossa was about 190 ranging from 143 tanks in 9. Panzer-Division and 11. Panzer-Division, to 265 tanks of 7. Panzer-Division.
 
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Hoi Neuling

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Yeah, belongs if you use old Tanks [Tank I, II, 35 / 38 (t)] and Loot-Tanks, which have you on Mass or the newer Tanks (Tank III and IV), which come out of slow Production first and get in full Production State in that Time first.

1a) Tank I Mass-Production: 1934 [54 Tanks Version A] / 1935 [851 Tanks Version A and some new B at the End] / 1936 [Tanks Version B] / 1937 [31 Tanks Version B];

All undestroyed Tank I´s get earlyer or later Refits into Tank-Destroyers and Command-Tanks as well as Howitzer-Prototypes, Anti-Air-Prototypes, other Protypes [like Flammers etc.] on the Frontline-Tanks; all others Securty-Dutys in occopied Countrys = 1.493 Tanks in Total

1b) Produced Variants: 184 Command-Tanks, 51 Ammo-Transporter = 235 of that Variants in Total

1c) Refits to Variants: 202 Tank-Destroyers [Tank I B], 38 Howitzer-Prototypes "Bision I" [Tank I B], 24 Anti-Air-Protypes [Tank I A]

2a) Tank II Pre-Production: 1936 to 1937 [100 Tanks Version a1, a2, a3 and 100 Tanks Version b] / 1937 [75 Tanks Version c]


2b) Tank II Mass-Production: 1937 to 1939 [210 Tanks Version A, 384 Tanks Version B / 364 Tanks Version C] / 1941 incl. 1942 [509 Tanks Version F]

2c) Tank II Special-Production "Scout": 1938 [43 Tanks Version D and 7 Tanks Version E] / 1940 [45 Tanks Version G] / 1941 [1 Prototype Version H with advanced Cannon] / 1942 to 1944 [100 Tanks Version L "Luchs"] / never produced Leopard "Scout"-Tank!

2d) Tank II advanced Tank: 1940 incl. 1941 [31 Tanks Version J-Prototypes]

All undestroyed Tank II´s get like the Tank I´s an Refit into Tank-Destroyers, Command-Tanks, Flammer-Tanks and new Artillery-Tank "Wespe" as well as Howitzer-Protoype, Anti-Air-Prototype, other Protypes on the Frontline-Tanks; all others get Security-Dutys in occopied Countrys or Lend-Leased to befriend Countrys = 1.900 Tanks in Total!

2e) Produced Variants: 681 Tank-Destroyers "Marder II", 683 Artillery "Wespe" and 158 Ammo-Transports "Wespe" / 95 Flamers "Flamingo" incl. Refits from D/E-Tanks

2f) Refits to Variant: 182 Tank-Destroyers [Tank II A / B / C / D / F] / 12 Howitzer-Prototypes "Bison II" [Tank II B] / 95 Flamers "Flamingo" [from remaing D/E-Tanks and fresh Produced]


3a) Tank III Production: 1937 [20 Tanks Version A / B] / 1938 [15 Tanks Version C and 25 Tanks Version D] / 1939 [96 Tanks Version E] / 1940 [5 Tanks Version D]

3b) Tank III Beginn Mass-Production: 1939 [450 Version F] / 1940 and 1941 [594 Version G and 286 Version H]

3c) Tank III Full Mass-Production: 1941 and 1942 [1.521 Version J and 1.470 Version L] / 1942 and 1943 [517 Version M and 614 Version N]

All undestroyed medium Tank III´s get like the previous light Tanks an Refit into Stugs, Command-Tanks, Artillery-Recons and others as well as Protoypes.

3d) Produced Variants: Stug III [41 on Variant A / 320 on Variant B / 50 on Variant C / 150 on Variant D / 284 on Variant E / 367 on Varinat F / 250 on Variant F/8 / 8423 on Variant G] / 1.300 Stormhowitzer / Command Tanks [30 D1 on Variant D / 45 E on Variant E / 175 H on Variant H / 81 J on Variant J / 50 K on Variant M] / 202 Artillery-Observers /

3e) Refits to Variant: 173 Stug III [Tank III G] / 12 [Tank III H] / 104 Command Tank [Tank III J] / Flammers 100 [Tank III M]


4a) Tank IV Production: 1937 [13 Tanks A] / 1938 [102 Tanks] / 1939 [147 Tanks] / 1940 [290 Tanks]

4b) Tank IV Beginn Mass-Production: 1941 [480 Tanks]

4c) Tank IV Mass-Production: 1942 [994 Tanks] / 1943 [2.983 Tanks] / 1944 [3.125 Tanks] / 1945 and War End [375 Tanks] = 8.509 Tanks IV in Total!

I don´t make the Variants there for Stugs, Command-Tanks and so on there. That should only show the Numbers what was in Production and from hard Research in the Lexicon [like Lexica from the German Army in WW 2 and Books] I know that most Armys didn´t reached the theoretical Numbers for a full Devision. Mostly they had about 150 Tanks, if they get lucky 200 with Command-Tanks and Reserves.

Esp. the German Army in WW 2, which is announced in the Threat here.
 

PK_AZ

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90% agree, but I would allow for different amount of tanks in recon and flametank companies, and also for another value in all superheavy battalions (that is, the same value in every subtype of SH).

For support, there is already precedence in form of support artillery. For Super-heavies, it would emphasize their power ('Look! That tank is so cool that twenty of them are fair comparison for forty normal ones!').

I'm not big fan of losing 36-gun medium self-propelled artillery, but I agree that gameplay should come before flavor.
 
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Gyrvendal

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90% agree, but I would allow for different amount of tanks in recon and flametank companies, and also for another value in all superheavy battalions (that is, the same value in every subtype of SH).
About the recon and flametank companies, I don't really see why they should be cheaper than everything else, especially if we remove the stat nerfs that they get (maybe keep some nerf for recon, but not for flame, the flamethrower itself is already enough of a nerf...)
For super-heavies, I think the fact that you would only ever build one battalion of them per division (if you're sane) already represents their rarity. But I have no strong feelings about it.
 
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Caldingo92

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I agree, 40 or 45 should be the standard number for all armoured battalion types, except for SHs.
4x tanks per platoon
3x platoons per company + 2/3 tanks for company HQ
3x companies per battalion
42-45 tanks total for a fully complimented armoured battalion.
 
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ETAIPOS

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About the recon and flametank companies, I don't really see why they should be cheaper than everything else, especially if we remove the stat nerfs that they get (maybe keep some nerf for recon, but not for flame, the flamethrower itself is already enough of a nerf...)
For super-heavies, I think the fact that you would only ever build one battalion of them per division (if you're sane) already represents their rarity. But I have no strong feelings about it.
Well, recon and flame are COMPANIES contrary to line BATTALIONS that's why they need less vehicles and have stats reductions. There is no need to change IMHO.

On the other hand it could be interesting to add line recon and flame battalions as many armies used much bigger detachments than companies.
 
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Hoi Neuling

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I agree, 40 or 45 should be the standard number for all armoured battalion types, except for SHs.
4x tanks per platoon
3x platoons per company + 2/3 tanks for company HQ
3x companies per battalion
42-45 tanks total for a fully complimented armoured battalion.

Caldingo92 is correct in most Parts. There is a very cool Mod, which brings excactly the best realism the Game can give in that Part. It´s called TANK DESIGNER by ETAIPOS.

An Tank Devision have now 45 Tanks per Tank-Picture (not 60) and with 4 Tank-Pictures 180 Tanks per Devision. I use the Mod and now a real feeling about an real Army comes up with Planing, making Tank-Devisions and much more like it was in that Time and is today.
 
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Th3master

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90% agree, but I would allow for different amount of tanks in recon and flametank companies, and also for another value in all superheavy battalions (that is, the same value in every subtype of SH).

For support, there is already precedence in form of support artillery. For Super-heavies, it would emphasize their power ('Look! That tank is so cool that twenty of them are fair comparison for forty normal ones!').

I'm not big fan of losing 36-gun medium self-propelled artillery, but I agree that gameplay should come before flavor.
I think even superheavies should have the same number per Battalion.

Do agree that all artillery units should have the same amount of guns. Maybe even allow SP arty to be used as a support company along with TDs and SPAA.
 
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Ludek

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Considering That you need 3-4 battalions in game division to get number of tanks in close to real German tank division(with had two tank battalions IIRC from 41 or 42) I would say that that in
game TD battalion represents more like company. It's support element not intended to be 'main' unit unlike tanks, infantry or to lesser extent artillery. BTW unit icon in designer states it's purpose
in battle/training of the unit and training division commanders how to use it if you would put regular tanks expectation would be to use it as TD unit (waiting in ambushes, supporting infantry in antitank actions etc.) not as regular tank.
Having TD unit costing half as much 'tanks' in regular tank battalion makes them cheaper in terms of buying capability with signals intention that it's much easier give good TD capability with dedicated units.
Similiar reasoning could be extended to heavy and super-heavy armor or SP guns with with it's armor and mobility could be sait to be more deadly per 'tube' becouse it's intended and used more aggressively and thus effective and there too matter balancing costs of capability (bought by equipment and doctrine how to use unit) vs other units.

I think you gus too much fixate on equating ingame battalion with it's RL nameholder, names for name Soveier tank regiment was more like ingame battalion, so why not assume similar difference with TD 'batatlion'. In game battalion are just units/tokens from with we build division and one should just try to use them to build/simulate eqiuipment of RL division.
 

vermicious knid

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Here is a brain teaser: make this actual historical use work in the current system.

"The first production vehicle came off the line in January 1943 as the SdKfz 165 “Hummel”. For the most part they served in mixed battalions, one per panzer division, with two 6-gun batteries of Wespe and one of Hummel."


This explicitly isn't a company, it is a battalion. I believe these battalions usually had a few unarmed vehicles as ammunition carriers, so maybe 24 vehicles would be fair for a SP artillery unit? I honestly don't know what would happen if you had mixed equipment requirements in a battalion though...I'm assuming my computer would melt.
 

DaleDVM

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To be honest I would prefer the numbers to be more realistic to their historical makeup, which would be more equal than they are now but not all the same either. However, stats MUST be changed to reflect those numbers in the division designer. It is nuts that you have to build 60 light tanks to replace 40 medium tanks to achieve the same firepower even if they have the exact same guns equipped. (please don't argue medium tanks are more effective because of their armor/size/crew, that is taken into account with the battalions other stats)

I do believe it is more important that all AFVs take up the same width to make balancing easier.

I like that a unit designation like TD or SPART lowers the numbers needed in a battalion. As long as the stats are balanced by PROPER modifiers, it is all good.

I don't mind that designating the same exact vehicle in different roles in the division changes its effects. Designating a tank to an artillery role in your division increases its SA, decreases HA and breakthrough, and increases supply consumption by quite a bit. Then they cost less because it doesn't take as many vehicles to fulfill that role. That is pretty realistic IMHO. I do think the penalty to breakthrough and HA are too high however. If SPART had a width of 2 I think the extra SA and lower cost would be worth adding to divisions without making them OP.

Another problem with the designer is that there are no options for open topped vehicles at all. They are just mixed in with all other vehicles?

I find that the biggest problem with the designer right now is that the guns are WAY overpriced (especially in resource costs) and the turret is WAY underpriced.

A hint for everyone... I did not notice this mentioned on this thread, but you can put a light fixed superstructure on your medium tanks with the exact same stats. The only downside is you can't equip large guns. So, If you are putting medium guns on your medium chassis, the small fixed structure reduces the cost for the vehicle by .75 production.

However, that is all a moot point. Because currently the simple answer is this. You should never ever ever build anything with a fixed superstructure until the tank designer gets balanced. The 3 man turret is the king on everything unless you never plan on attacking with your AFVs? Who would do that?

The only advantage to the fixed superstructure is 20% reliability and 3 defense. (Why a fixed superstructure gets 3 defense vs a turret, I have no idea?) The fixed superstructure costs either .75 (small) or 1.5 (medium) 5 (large) production. The 3 man turret costs 1, 2, 5.5. So for a little extra production you gain 20 breakthrough with a loss of 20% reliability and 3 defense. However, with the way breakthrough gets multiplied by the radio up to 65% it overwhelms the 20% flat reliability which never gets increased by anything and the measly 3 defense.

My suggestions to fix the problems I have raised...

1) Decrease the cost of the vehicle gun by about 2 production and a tungsten on average. They should enable for fractions of resource to be used, like .5 tungsten to be used in some cases to make the system more flexible and have more gradual cost increases.
2) Decrease the fixed superstructure cost to .5 (S), .75 (M), and 1 (L). Increase the cost of the one man turret to 1 (S), 1.5 (M), the two man turret to 2 (S), 3 (M), 4 (L) and the 3 man turret to 4 (S), 5 (M), 6 (L). A good 2 or 3 man turret cost as much as the gun to produce.
3) Have an option for both fixed superstructure and turrets to be open topped. This should significantly increase their firepower and supply usage, decrease their cost, and give a malus to defense, hardness, and breakthrough.
4) Make all vehicle battalions have the same width and make any necessary adjustments to artillery firepower to keep game balance. Although right now I would think only leg ART and towed ART would need a little nerf.
5) Decrease the cost of the chassis a bit to bring overall cost of AFVs down. They are either overpriced or too ineffective on the battlefield right now to be balanced with softer units like INF and MOT! Or perhaps soft units need a little nerf. Either way works for me.
 
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I like that a unit designation like TD or SPART lowers the numbers needed in a battalion. As long as the stats are balanced by PROPER modifiers, it is all good.

I kind of feel the opposite. It feels weird that a battalion of medium tank destroyers is fewer vehicles than a battalion of medium tanks, and it can easily mess with balance (adding TD or other designations can be a much cheaper source of armor than tanks because you need fewer chassis, and see the recent change forcing -95% breakthrough on support tank variants for I assume similar reasons).

I feel like if they gave all the battalions the same chassis requirement, and then changed the balance of components to reward the different variants, that would work out better. Like, if I can build a tank destroyer that's slower, has very little breakthrough, and is much cheaper, then it makes sense that I'd put it in more defense oriented divisions and/or ones intended to fight armor, and have more expensive standard tanks in more attack oriented/anti-infantry divisions. Or similar. The Tank Destroyer division doesn't need to be arbitrarily cheaper by reducing the number of chassis used if the actual components are designed around it.

I'm actually more unsure about the same number of light/medium/whatever tanks since it makes sense that you could fit fewer bigger tanks in the same area. OTOH, it makes no sense that 60 light tanks with close assault guns have the same attack as 40 medium tanks with the same close assault guns. So while it's not the most realistic, for a gameplay perspective I think maybe standardizing the chassis number across size is a good idea.

This would definitely require an extensive rebalancing though. If suddenly a light tank battalion costs half as much, or a Super Heavy battalion costs twice as much, but the stats are the same, then that will mess with the current balance something fierce.
 
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I kind of feel the opposite. It feels weird that a battalion of medium tank destroyers is fewer vehicles than a battalion of medium tanks, and it can easily mess with balance (adding TD or other designations can be a much cheaper source of armor than tanks because you need fewer chassis, and see the recent change forcing -95% breakthrough on support tank variants for I assume similar reasons).

I understand how it feels but alas, it doesn't have to affect balance at all. In real life those support battalions did have fewer vehicles in them. It is an easy fix. If it has 30% less vehicles just reduce the stats by a similar amount. Balanced, Easy peasy!

Then modifiers can be given for the new role these vehicles are being used in. Like a % increase to soft attack if put in an artillery role. The unit just uses more supply and has less front line stats to offer the division. Hence less breakthrough and hard attack since they are lobbing shells from the rear.

Then standardize the width at 2. In this way support battalions are underpowered compared to a frontline battalions, but serve a specific purpose for the division.

The 95% is extreme and weird. I don't know what the developers are thinking honestly.

I would consult with them for free as I am sure many brilliant gamers on these forums would...
 
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I understand how it feels but alas, it doesn't have to affect balance at all. In real life those support battalions did have fewer vehicles in them. It is an easy fix. If it has 30% less vehicles just reduce the stats by a similar amount. Balanced, Easy peasy!

Then modifiers can be given for the new role these vehicles are being used in. Like a % increase to soft attack if put in an artillery role. The unit just uses more supply and has less front line stats to offer the division. Hence less breakthrough and hard attack since they are lobbing shells from the rear.

Then standardize the width at 2. In this way support battalions are underpowered compared to a frontline battalions, but serve a specific purpose for the division.

How would that work with stats that are treated as the average of all battalions, or otherwise something other than a straight up sum, like organization or armor? Other than that, basing stats on the amount of equipment used (IE 10 medium tanks with 5 soft attack each would give a battalion 50 soft attack) is a reasonable alternative to equalizing chassis count per battalion both for tank variants and different sizes. I assume it would be more programming work though.
 
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