We need more cbs

[Colonizor48]

Having played 1.9. Whilst i largely find it inferior to 2.8. I liked how many wargoals there were. Just add more cbs. A few ideas include- Open borders. And a new diplo action. Request open borders. You could use this on any empire with closed borders. If they refuse you get the open border cb on them. Or the stop atrocities cb for xenophiles. Or if your materialist and have ai rights you should be able to liberate ai.

 

[DrNukeLear]

Also despoiler cb needs overhaul badly. Should steal pops.

Allow "defensive wars only"/fanatic pacifists to claim territory during peacetime.

I’d actually like a peaceful way for pacifists to take systems through the galactic community or other mechanism. Obviously it would need limitations and be a slow process.

 

[Mastikator]

Also despoiler cb needs overhaul badly. Should steal pops.

I’d actually like a peaceful way for pacifists to take systems through the galactic community or other mechanism. Obviously it would need limitations and be a slow process.

Or trade. IMO it should be possible for the AI to evaluate the worth of a system.

 

[Pancakelord]

Or trade. IMO it should be possible for the AI to evaluate the worth of a system.

I can see valuing a colony-less system [base price, scaled by distance + some amount for resources in system] as possible (debatable, as closed borders cheese is a thing and access for ships is value all unto its own) but how would you price something like an alloy world, or even the science output of a ring world?

 

[Mastikator]

I can see valuing a colony-less system [base price, scaled by distance + some amount for resources in system] as possible (debatable, as closed borders cheese is a thing and access for ships is value all unto its own) but how would you price something like an alloy world, or even the science output of a ring world?

It's better to overvalue a planet than to undervalue a planet, but it's totally possible to value a planet.

A pop costs 500 food to grow. (or 100 alloys for robots, so 600 value if robot)
A planet is worth 500 minerals per district (not really, but lets say). And 500 minerals per building plus 500 minerals per upgrade on buildings.
A planet costs 200 food, 200 consumer goods and 200 alloys to colonize too so 1200 value.
A planets value comes from it net production. I'd say current net production x 120. So what it would produce in 10 years if nothing changes.

So the cost of one planet is 1200 + organic pops x 500 + robotic pops x 600 + districts x 500 + 500 per building or upgrade. That's JUST the planet.

The system itself costs 75 influence and 100 alloys to build, that's already 400 value and 75 influence. Influence is hard to evaluate. But I think we can bump up the cost to 2000 value total easily, or even 3000 just to be on the safe side.

For the space resources I'd simply say the (potential) production x 120, so 10 years worth of production.

An AI should NEVER trade a system that would cut off one part of their empire for another. An AI should NEVER trade a system with a megastructure (ruined or otherwise), including habitats and gateways.

So an example system. Has 3 energy on the star and 6 minerals on two asteroids. (3 + 6) * 120 + 3000 = 4080 energy (or equivalent) for the AI to agree to sell. That is assuming the AI is OK with a "fair" price.
If the system also has one planet. The planet only has 2 mining districts and 4 pops. It produces 8 minerals, costs 4 energy, 1 consumer product (let's just say).
The net production of the planet is 8 - 4 - 1 * 2 = 2, and 2 x 120 = 240.
The mining districts are valued at 500 each, so 1000. And it costed 1200 to colonize it. So 240 + 1000 + 1200 = 2440 for the crappy little planet.
Giving a grand total of 6540 value for the system.

It would be possible to buy fringe systems and a few underdeveloped planets, any developed planet would be vastly too expensive. And that's fine. It's GOOD IMO.

 

[Pancakelord]

It's better to overvalue a planet than to undervalue a planet, but it's totally possible to value a planet.

A pop costs 500 food to grow. (or 100 alloys for robots, so 600 value if robot)
A planet is worth 500 minerals per district (not really, but lets say). And 500 minerals per building plus 500 minerals per upgrade on buildings.
A planet costs 200 food, 200 consumer goods and 200 alloys to colonize too so 1200 value.
A planets value comes from it net production. I'd say current net production x 120. So what it would produce in 10 years if nothing changes.

So the cost of one planet is 1200 + organic pops x 500 + robotic pops x 600 + districts x 500 + 500 per building or upgrade. That's JUST the planet.

The system itself costs 75 influence and 100 alloys to build, that's already 400 value and 75 influence. Influence is hard to evaluate. But I think we can bump up the cost to 2000 value total easily, or even 3000 just to be on the safe side.

For the space resources I'd simply say the (potential) production x 120, so 10 years worth of production.

An AI should NEVER trade a system that would cut off one part of their empire for another. An AI should NEVER trade a system with a megastructure (ruined or otherwise), including habitats and gateways.

So an example system. Has 3 energy on the star and 6 minerals on two asteroids. (3 + 6) * 120 + 3000 = 4080 energy (or equivalent) for the AI to agree to sell. That is assuming the AI is OK with a "fair" price.
If the system also has one planet. The planet only has 2 mining districts and 4 pops. It produces 8 minerals, costs 4 energy, 1 consumer product (let's just say).
The net production of the planet is 8 - 4 - 1 * 2 = 2, and 2 x 120 = 240.
The mining districts are valued at 500 each, so 1000. And it costed 1200 to colonize it. So 240 + 1000 + 1200 = 2440 for the crappy little planet.
Giving a grand total of 6540 value for the system.

It would be possible to buy fringe systems and a few underdeveloped planets, any developed planet would be vastly too expensive. And that's fine. It's GOOD IMO.

So Net Asset Value. I can get behind that.

Though I'd question making all planets have an equivalent/negligible base cost, modifiers dont scale linearly. so a size 25 world [even if it's under developed] should probably cost more than 2.5x times a size 10 world, if that makes sense. And worlds <15 cant be used for certain decisions so they're not quite as useful (admittedly an edgecase),

 

[Mastikator]

So Net Asset Value. I can get behind that.

Though I'd question making all planets have an equivalent/negligible base cost, modifiers dont scale linearly. so a size 25 world [even if it's under developed] should probably cost more than 2.5x times a size 10 world, if that makes sense. And worlds <15 cant be used for certain decisions so they're not quite as useful (admittedly an edgecase),

True. Also one thing I didn't consider is planet classification. A size 25 gaia is better than a size 25 arid, even for machine empires.
I'd add maybe 10 x size x size for normal planets. 15 for gaia and relic, plus 6000. 25 for ecumenopolis, plus 30k from the cost of upgrading. Tomb world is 5, a machine empire considers machine world the same value as gaia, a non-machine considers machine world as a tomb world. Same for hive minds and hive worlds.
So a 25 desert would cost 6250 extra, a 10 desert costs 1000 extra. A 15 gaia costs 9375 value extra. A 20 ecumenopolis costs 40000
A fully developed planet will probably cost in the 100k realm and thus be impossible to trade, even if you could somehow afford it the AI wouldn't be able to receive so much value.

The goal I think would be to trade some fringe systems and potentially a planet or two if you are extremely rich. A 40 pop planet will always be prohibitively expensive, a human player would never in their right mind trade it for any amount of resources. But you might sell a system for a few thousand energy credits.
You pay for potential and actual loss and what they spent to develop it. Just as you do your own planets.

It's also very unlikely that an empire would want to buy a machine world from a machine empire, the empire can't really use it and the machine empire thinks it's extremely valuable.

I'd also add that any system in the core sector is never for sale. And it should never consider trade over time to be valid, since you can break it early and the transfer won't be reversed. Always upfront payment for systems.

 

[Rodmar18]

Worlds with special planet modifiers or planetary features could perhaps be excluded from trade (titanesque lifeforms, subterranean civilisation, gardeners, etc.), only "regular" worlds.

Last day, I would have gladly given a whole sector and a colony to my neighbour in exchange, on the other side of their territory, for a handful of non colonizable systems that would allow me to make a sector out of three isolated pockets in (now) their territory (two leviathan systems, plus the Sanctuary that acted as a chokepoint and denied them another 2 systems. I have 6 colonies in these three pockets, plus the Sanctuary ringworld. But the game won't give up even the emptiest of systems (-1000 trade points), and at the same time value an adjacent system offered to them to 4 trade points!

 

[Tamwin5]

It's better to overvalue a planet than to undervalue a planet, but it's totally possible to value a planet.

A pop costs 500 food to grow. (or 100 alloys for robots, so 600 value if robot)
A planet is worth 500 minerals per district (not really, but lets say). And 500 minerals per building plus 500 minerals per upgrade on buildings.
A planet costs 200 food, 200 consumer goods and 200 alloys to colonize too so 1200 value.
A planets value comes from it net production. I'd say current net production x 120. So what it would produce in 10 years if nothing changes.

So the cost of one planet is 1200 + organic pops x 500 + robotic pops x 600 + districts x 500 + 500 per building or upgrade. That's JUST the planet.

The system itself costs 75 influence and 100 alloys to build, that's already 400 value and 75 influence. Influence is hard to evaluate. But I think we can bump up the cost to 2000 value total easily, or even 3000 just to be on the safe side.

For the space resources I'd simply say the (potential) production x 120, so 10 years worth of production.

An AI should NEVER trade a system that would cut off one part of their empire for another. An AI should NEVER trade a system with a megastructure (ruined or otherwise), including habitats and gateways.

So an example system. Has 3 energy on the star and 6 minerals on two asteroids. (3 + 6) * 120 + 3000 = 4080 energy (or equivalent) for the AI to agree to sell. That is assuming the AI is OK with a "fair" price.
If the system also has one planet. The planet only has 2 mining districts and 4 pops. It produces 8 minerals, costs 4 energy, 1 consumer product (let's just say).
The net production of the planet is 8 - 4 - 1 * 2 = 2, and 2 x 120 = 240.
The mining districts are valued at 500 each, so 1000. And it costed 1200 to colonize it. So 240 + 1000 + 1200 = 2440 for the crappy little planet.
Giving a grand total of 6540 value for the system.

It would be possible to buy fringe systems and a few underdeveloped planets, any developed planet would be vastly too expensive. And that's fine. It's GOOD IMO.

I think you are significantly undervaluing planets and pops in your math. Personally I put the price of a pop at around 1k. There should also be bonuses for habitability (AI probably just checks against whoever has the best habitability within their empire), modifiers/planetary features, and total number of available districts. I also disagree on the 10 years period, I think 20 would probably be better.

That said, I think most empire would refuse to trade inhabited systems. Giving up some random star system is one thing, but sovereign citizens? The one exception would be Megacorps.

 

[Mastikator]

I think you are significantly undervaluing planets and pops in your math. Personally I put the price of a pop at around 1k. There should also be bonuses for habitability (AI probably just checks against whoever has the best habitability within their empire), modifiers/planetary features, and total number of available districts. I also disagree on the 10 years period, I think 20 would probably be better.

That said, I think most empire would refuse to trade inhabited systems. Giving up some random star system is one thing, but sovereign citizens? The one exception would be Megacorps.

500 is how a slave is valued on the market. But you're right that to a non-slaver it would be 1000. And since you're definitely buying non-slaves as well as potentially slaves it may be 1000 is more appropriate.

 

[Tamwin5]

500 is how a slave is valued on the market. But you're right that to a non-slaver it would be 1000. And since you're definitely buying non-slaves as well as potentially slaves it may be 1000 is more appropriate.

Honestly the slave market is FAR too cheap. It really should have been like an auction or something else.

 

[Colonizor48]

I'd like to support this and add:

• multiple wargoals (for example humiliate + despoil)
• negotiate partial surrender
• Join ongoing war
• Leave ongoing war (without it ending for other parties)
• All empires surrender individually in ongoing war (no more surrendering your allies territory without their say so)
• War propaganda edict that reduces war exhaustion
• Better liberation war outcome, don't create megacorporations
• Allow "defensive wars only"/fanatic pacifists to claim territory during peacetime.

This. Could someone please use this. Also if 2 powers are at war mabye an empire could act as a mediator between them. And even force a peace by going to war with both sides and other such things.

 

[Colonizor48]

Why can't we join factions federations during wars? Why cant we pull a 1939 poland?

 

[mial42]

I'd like to support this and add:

• Better liberation war outcome, don't create megacorporations

I've actually done this in Galactic Community Expanded, with a War Goal called "Unequal Treaties," which essentially functions as a liberation war that turns the target empire in to an oligarchy with your ethics, the merchant guilds civic, and a huge bonus to opinion (so you can get a commercial pact or get them in to your federation). If the target is a Megacorp, you get their branch offices too (if you have commercial pacts with their hosts or are a criminal syndicate).