We need a bunch of new buildings

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Xshu

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Personally, I'd like to see the living metals used to reduce the price of megastructures again. Right now we have a bunch of ways to increase the speed at which they're built, but we've lost the living metal reduction to megastructure cost — the only way to make their crippling expense more bearable. And of course, using them to regenerate your fleet again would be nice.

Not to nitpick but alloys wouldn't translate well into consumer goods.
I'm curious why you say this. We use alloys like steel, brass, and pewter to make all sorts of consumer goods. Even a car can be a consumer good.

Why would you stop pop growth on a planet? Pop growth is always a good thing, I could just resettle everyone myself if I wanted to but that's not what I want, the planet isn't developed fully it literally has massive gaping holes in the building slots, you use at best 4-5 buildings outside the capital on a fully rural world which is a shame.
Trust me, if you play tall it's entirely possible to end up with an empire of planets that are all overpopulated, and with the nerf to (sorry, "specialization of") habitats you can't really just make new places to send them all. Don't get me wrong, I think you're right about how things should change and how the current late-game resources being useless is kind of ridiculous, but I'm always surprised to see people say things like "you'll never want to stop growth, ever". My empire of six 100+ population worlds begs to differ.
 

Delthor

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How is that a good thing? A bunch of resources are literally unused right now.

The only resources that are remotely "unused" are the truly rare resources like living metal. That's how it should be; they're rare resources that you can't manufacture and give powerful boosts, but aren't absolutely required like the other strategic resources or the core economic resources. If they were absolutely required to be able to function in late game, they'd need to make them as common as motes and gases. Having powerful, but not critical buffs is a better place for them.

I think the core economy in the game is done extremely well, and I'm baffled by the fact that you think it's just a skeleton. People are already complaining about the level of complexity. Adding more bloat makes that worse and doesn't add any depth.

Why would you stop pop growth on a planet?

As I said:

Having growth in places where you need it is far more valuable than the few perks you get from building up a larger pop base on rural worlds.

I answer your question of why in the text you quoted. You can disagree with the advice, but don't act like I didn't give reasons to not turn every mining colony into a massive trade center. Pop growth is precious, and I'll happily give up a tiny 0.3 to direct 6+ growth to places where I need it more than a little mining colony.

That's WHAT I WANT. Quality in the building system.

Our fundamental disagreement is that you think adding more buildings will improve quality, while I think it will just add unneeded bloat that won't improve the game while taking resources away from more important stuff. In my experience, the core economy is fantastic. The core resource chain, the strategic resources, the pop/job/housing/amenity balance, and the district/building setup are all working great. The market had one exploit that needed to be fixed; that's hardly "completely broken" and I haven't seen any major changes to the core economy so I don't know what you're claiming there. The only issues I have right now are bugs, AI issues, and certain specific cases like ecumenopolises totally outclassing habitats and ringworlds. The fundamental systems are fantastic, and I've never had as much fun with Stellaris as I am now. I don't see how throwing more buildings at me to scroll past fixes any of these three issues.

I much prefer to keep my game lean and streamlined, without a bunch of extra unnecessary stuff. The game as it is now does that nearly perfectly. Every building has its purpose, and the flow of resources is clear. Muddling this with extra conversions between things doesn't appeal to me at all. For example, your idea of a building that converts alloys to consumer goods: Why wouldn't you just replace the extra alloy foundries with civilian industries? That achieves the same goal with one less step and one less building in the building list, which is already quite long.

Mods allow people to add a ton more stuff to the game for people who just want a ton of stuff in the game and don't mind bloat without forcing that on everyone.
 

suplanter

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I would like to see buildings that use food more. Food or more accurately industrially grown products(wood,livestock,plant based fabrics,food,medicine) would be perfect for consumer goods. Food could be used to create energy in the form of bio fuel. In a stretch maybe even allow food to be turned into minerals in the form of carbon nanofibers.
 

The Boz

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I would like to see buildings that use food more. Food or more accurately industrially grown products(wood,livestock,plant based fabrics,food,medicine) would be perfect for consumer goods. Food could be used to create energy in the form of bio fuel. In a stretch maybe even allow food to be turned into minerals in the form of carbon nanofibers.
Consumer goods = food + minerals + energy would be pretty neat.
 

Person012345

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Not to nitpick but alloys wouldn't translate well into consumer goods. You wouldn't necessarily strip aircraft carrier armor and try to make desks out of it, but I digress. Buildings that turn other materials into strat. resources would be nice, but I'm not sure turning crystals into motes is thematically viable, you wouldn't use a credit card to pay off a credit bill. That being said, I would like to see food be used for more as having a food surplus doesn't do anything anymore.
There are desks made out of steel. Granted it's not quite the same composition as the steel that goes into a flight deck but that's just because it doesn't make sense to heavily treat steel that goes into a desk. It's not because you can't if it made economic sense. I don't even understand where the other analogy is coming from. I really don't understand how turning a resource that you have a lot of into a resource that you don't is like "paying off a credit card with a credit card".
 

Flame13223

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There are desks made out of steel. Granted it's not quite the same composition as the steel that goes into a flight deck but that's just because it doesn't make sense to heavily treat steel that goes into a desk. It's not because you can't if it made economic sense. I don't even understand where the other analogy is coming from. I really don't understand how turning a resource that you have a lot of into a resource that you don't is like "paying off a credit card with a credit card".
Not to nitpick but alloys wouldn't translate well into consumer goods. You wouldn't necessarily strip aircraft carrier armor and try to make desks out of it, but I digress.

It all depends on the availability of a resource, the ratio of conversion and the number and type of jobs you get. For example if a building was available that turned alloys into consumer goods but that building had 5 worker job slots instead of just the basic 2 you might consider it just because it offers more jobs on a planet that might not have enough jobs available or consider it as a way to have workers instead of specialists on a rural planet.

As for the technicality. Using alloys, a material mainly used for spacecraft seems fitting for transportation aka cars, trains, etc, or just aircrafts and ships. Hell it makes sense for an overly millitaristic society to use alloys to make consumer goods, as they would pride themselves on a spartan way of life where decor and goods are made of hard materials. It could also be an argument for recycling, as using really good alloys for cars makes cars last longer, using them for tables makes tables last longer and if something breaks you can recycle the materials more easily. In fact I'd argue a -10% consumer goods use on the planet could be a cool planet-unique building effect for a recycling themed building like that.
 

Person012345

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It all depends on the availability of a resource, the ratio of conversion and the number and type of jobs you get. For example if a building was available that turned alloys into consumer goods but that building had 5 worker job slots instead of just the basic 2 you might consider it just because it offers more jobs on a planet that might not have enough jobs available or consider it as a way to have workers instead of specialists on a rural planet.

As for the technicality. Using alloys, a material mainly used for spacecraft seems fitting for transportation aka cars, trains, etc, or just aircrafts and ships. Hell it makes sense for an overly millitaristic society to use alloys to make consumer goods, as they would pride themselves on a spartan way of life where decor and goods are made of hard materials. It could also be an argument for recycling, as using really good alloys for cars makes cars last longer, using them for tables makes tables last longer and if something breaks you can recycle the materials more easily. In fact I'd argue a -10% consumer goods use on the planet could be a cool planet-unique building effect for a recycling themed building like that.
Harder doesn't mean longer lasting. From what I hear katanas have quite the penchant for snapping because harder also typically means more brittle. In something like a car, raw hardness could even be detrimental to safety in some ways I imagine.
 

SteelCrow

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Secondly, whenever I build a rural planet, where I just want minerals, energy and food I run into the issue that I need to go the full trade value clerk jobs route because there's nothing else for me to build into the building slots except hydroponic farms but it changes from rural to agri if I build to many of those and there's no mineral or energy building. Which I mean I get why there wouldn't be one specifically for them but you could have OTHER rural building types. There's not enough options for worker jobs for rural planets and you kinda need rural planets

I agree with this. I am always at a loss for what to build on Rural worlds after Holotheater and Resource +% buildings. I can't add many jobs because the planet doesn't have enough housing, so in my latest game I've taken to building Luxury Residences, lol
To be more specific, I would like to see buildings like Hydroponic Farms for Minerals and Energy. Maybe not Energy, since the Trade Value from clerks covers that, but some small way to increase Minerals would be great.

Lastly, there's a bunch of high-end resources that have nearly no use. Living metal, dark matter and zro are pretty much useless for most of the game. Dark matter you don't have any way of using until you kill Fallen empires, despite you being able to "mine" it a LOT earlier than that. Living metal is only used for Megastructure build speed isn't it? There's no other use is there? Its kind of disappointing that the most valuable and rare resources are nigh-on useless. At least Crystals and Gasses and Motes have buildings that use them. What good are dark matter deposits if nothing uses it? There should be dark matter reactor buildings and Living metal factories and Zro unity buildings and stuff.
I've seen a 2% Hull and Armor regen modifier on my ships when they are in my territory. I have Living Metal. Try looking for that. It would be more helpful outside my territory, but whatever.
Didn't know Dark Matter is used in FE tech. T'would be nice to have SOMETHING to make use of it earlier on.

In something like a car, raw hardness could even be detrimental to safety in some ways I imagine.
This is true. Softer metal absorbs more energy through its crumpling than harder metal does with its springing. Buildings are built with steel on the soft end.
 
Last edited:

Flame13223

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From what I hear katanas have quite the penchant for snapping because harder also typically means more brittle. In something like a car, raw hardness could even be detrimental to safety in some ways I imagine.
Well alloys are not supposed to be harder or brittle if it can resist a bullet it can resist damage overall. And yes metals flex that's why steel is so good, it doesn't break or bend it just flexes and then goes right back into the position it originally was in. At least in the case of swords. They're vastly superior to something like say bronze or aluminium or even wood when it comes to resisting time/damage. So yeah of course alloys would be more durable.
This is true. Softer metal absorbs more energy through its crumpling than harder metal does with its springing. Buildings are built with steel on the soft end.
It depends, yes in cars you don't want steel necessarilly (besides the fact that its much heavier) but when it comes to alloys they're good enough for spaceships so you'd expect it to be good for cars too I mean spaceships are designed for high durability and low weight.
 

SteelCrow

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It depends, yes in cars you don't want steel necessarilly (besides the fact that its much heavier) but when it comes to alloys they're good enough for spaceships so you'd expect it to be good for cars too I mean spaceships are designed for high durability and low weight.
Ooooohhhh, this is about
Alloys<->Consumer Goods

Frankly this is an unhelpful concept for the game because alloys are used exclusively to build anything in space. If there's no more space-based things you want to build, just produce more Consumer Goods and use them for research/unity/amenities. This is not a literal "nothing except starships are built with high-quality metals" but rather a division between space construction and civilian production. Note that Armies cost Minerals to build. It's a game-related artifact. Your people planetside don't have to consume the game resource "Alloys" to build things out of the same materials starships are built from.

If everyone on a planet where driving cars built out of space-grade materials, I think that would be a major source of Amenities.
 

Person012345

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Well alloys are not supposed to be harder or brittle if it can resist a bullet it can resist damage overall. And yes metals flex that's why steel is so good, it doesn't break or bend it just flexes and then goes right back into the position it originally was in. At least in the case of swords. They're vastly superior to something like say bronze or aluminium or even wood when it comes to resisting time/damage. So yeah of course alloys would be more durable.
Still not really right. Different materials are suitable for different applications for reasons other than economics. Economics is the overriding factor in what we do, and many things are made out of sub-optimal materials because of economics. So you could make a table out of scrap RHA for example and people would do it if it was economically viable but it doesn't mean it would create the optimal or even most durable table you've ever seen. When you're talking about a bronze sword vs a steel sword you're talking about an outright worse material for the job. But there's a point at which there is a balance and going further and further with, say, hardness doesn't result in more durable or a better product.

It depends, yes in cars you don't want steel necessarilly (besides the fact that its much heavier) but when it comes to alloys they're good enough for spaceships so you'd expect it to be good for cars too I mean spaceships are designed for high durability and low weight.
Steel is fine for cars, again sub-optimal in it's properties but economically viable. But again the point is that increasing hardness, for example, can lead to sub-optimal results. You keep saying "durability", but if you're in a crash in a car the car isn't the main concern. A hard alloy that doesn't deform would transfer more of the energy of a collision to the squishy occupants. Cars that don't deform and bounce off what they hit went out of fashion a long time ago because they are unsafe. The car ends up looking fine so it's "durable" but the people inside will always be made of meat and won't take the impact so well. On the other hand a well designed car might look like an absolute wreck at the end of it, but as long as the parts that needed to deform deformed to absorb the energy of the impact, causing the occupants to slow down less rapidly, and the parts that needed to stay rigid stayed rigid to stop everyone being crushed, the people inside will look a lot healthier.

There will always be upsides and downsides to different materials. The bronze sword in your first example is much easier to repair. So durability or ease of repair? Which is better? In the particular application of an organised military campaign, the answer may be different to another situation.
 

Flame13223

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Ooooohhhh, this is about
Alloys<->Consumer Goods

Frankly this is an unhelpful concept for the game because alloys are used exclusively to build anything in space. If there's no more space-based things you want to build, just produce more Consumer Goods and use them for research/unity/amenities. This is not a literal "nothing except starships are built with high-quality metals" but rather a division between space construction and civilian production. Note that Armies cost Minerals to build. It's a game-related artifact. Your people planetside don't have to consume the game resource "Alloys" to build things out of the same materials starships are built from.

If everyone on a planet where driving cars built out of space-grade materials, I think that would be a major source of Amenities.
Well that's kind of my issue tho, in a lot of spots in-game you are at a place where alloys are useless as you just sell it for dirt cheap bc you produce an excess but at other times you instantly need a ton of it so you need a big enough income to support those needs. So having another way to use alloys would be pretty useful.
 

Bobylein

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I really like that Zro and Dark Matter are resources that you need to fight or trade for and it would be a shame if you could simply mass produce them. I am not quite sure about Living Metal but I want a "Paint ships with Living Metal" edict that makes them repair themselves slowly.

About more buildings in general: Yea, a more advanced production chain could be interesting, same for more "rural" buildings, maybe buildings that boost districts further.

Also we need buildings for the different research departments.
 

Flame13223

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I really like that Zro and Dark Matter are resources that you need to fight or trade for and it would be a shame if you could simply mass produce them. I am not quite sure about Living Metal but I want a "Paint ships with Living Metal" edict that makes them repair themselves slowly.
Well sure even if you don't have a building that produces them it would be good for them to just simply have more uses, at least 1 building for each that uses 1 per month and gives some MASSIVE bonuses.

Also, imho it could be okay to have like an empire-unique building that lets you make 1 dark matter or 1 living metal or 1 zro. Just one. So its not too much, but just good enough in case you got unlucky and have no natural sources at all. Basically to help mitigate RNG bc otherwise ppl who have natural sources are just vastly better off and it wouldn't exactly be balanced, starting positions are kinda a huge factor as it is, its always good to have ways to mitigate it at least a little bit.
 

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Also, imho it could be okay to have like an empire-unique building that lets you make 1 dark matter or 1 living metal or 1 zro. Just one. So its not too much, but just good enough in case you got unlucky and have no natural sources at all. Basically to help mitigate RNG bc otherwise ppl who have natural sources are just vastly better off and it wouldn't exactly be balanced, starting positions are kinda a huge factor as it is, its always good to have ways to mitigate it at least a little bit.

I see your point, but stellaris overall is far from balanced and I like how those resources are something special on the map you really want to conquer or alternatively trade for, even in multiplayer in can create interesting situations. Is it fair balanced? Not really, but it creates reasons for conflict and I personally LOVE that and any other source would dimnish that.

Also I am not sure, but I guess you can't buy these resources from the market or can you?
 

Flame13223

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I see your point, but stellaris overall is far from balanced and I like how those resources are something special on the map you really want to conquer or alternatively trade for, even in multiplayer in can create interesting situations. Is it fair balanced? Not really, but it creates reasons for conflict and I personally LOVE that and any other source would dimnish that.

Also I am not sure, but I guess you can't buy these resources from the market or can you?
You can buy/sell dark matter, the others I dunno.

As for the conflict I guess that works better in MP than SP. An empire unique building imho could mean a best of both worlds situation as its limited enough to make the resource highly valuable but offer some fallback should you get the short end of the RNG stick, especially if its locked behind a late-game tech.
 

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Right now there's a bit of an issue that I have with the way the production chains are done.

For one, almost all the higher tier resources are made from minerals. Which is a shame. Consumer goods are good in that trade can give them as well but alloys, crystals, gasses, motes they're only made by either a direct tap that's kinda rare or you build refinery planets. I wish there were buildings that turned alloys into consumer goods or turned dark matter into energy or crystals into motes or motes into gasses or gasses into crystals. You already have a building that uses motes to make minerals and a building that turns minerals into motes...but there could be vastly complex resource chains and unique buildings or high tech buildings that do a lot more.

There will always be a split between primary production (resources extracted 'from nature') and secondary production (resources converted from other resources). However complicated you make the secondary production, it has to be limited somehow by your level of primary production.

If you create long paths where a short path already exist, e.g. minerals -> alloys -> CGs when minerals -> CGs is already possible, you create some nonsensical situations where compounding production bonuses mean that the long path has a much greater output just because of how long it is. Any sort of cycle of resources is a no-no as with sufficient bonuses, it would lead to an infinite resource machine that is divorced from any sort of natural input. So I think you'd have to be very careful in introducing unorthodox methods of converting resources and not making them too efficient.

Secondly, whenever I build a rural planet, where I just want minerals, energy and food I run into the issue that I need to go the full trade value clerk jobs route because there's nothing else for me to build into the building slots except hydroponic farms but it changes from rural to agri if I build to many of those and there's no mineral or energy building. Which I mean I get why there wouldn't be one specifically for them but you could have OTHER rural building types. There's not enough options for worker jobs for rural planets and you kinda need rural planets because there's not enough specialist jobs either, almost all specialists use minerals in some way, some use them in consumer goods form but those cost minerals to make so you cannot have too many specialist based planets without your mineral income tanking drastically. We need more buildings to fill out the gaps on both rural and urban planets.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to have mineral/energy versions of hydroponics farms, at least for non-Gestalt empires. If you can just stuff any planet you like with whatever kind of basic resource production, then the system of natural resource districts becomes meaningless.

In the current version, the rural planet bonus is so tiny that I wouldn't worry about it. You can build anything you like on a 'rural' planet; if it ceases to be 'rural', it's no great loss compared to the benefit of the buildings. You probably want to concentrate your labs on a small number of tech worlds with assisted research, and your alloys/CG factories on a few forge worlds; but once you've done that, all the other types of building can go wherever they fit. So I agree that more building types would help here, but they don't have to be specifically 'rural' building types.

One change that could be made though is to allow players to explicitly declare the specialism of the planet (maybe at a small Influence cost?), overriding whatever specialism the game generates automatically. There could then be techs etc that improve the planetary specialism bonuses.

Lastly, there's a bunch of high-end resources that have nearly no use. Living metal, dark matter and zro are pretty much useless for most of the game. Dark matter you don't have any way of using until you kill Fallen empires, despite you being able to "mine" it a LOT earlier than that. Living metal is only used for Megastructure build speed isn't it? There's no other use is there? Its kind of disappointing that the most valuable and rare resources are nigh-on useless. At least Crystals and Gasses and Motes have buildings that use them. What good are dark matter deposits if nothing uses it? There should be dark matter reactor buildings and Living metal factories and Zro unity buildings and stuff.

Definitely, there should be more interesting optional uses of these high-end resources, even if it's just a few more edicts. Zro is a special case because it's so strongly associated with psionic ascension, but certainly the average empire should get something out of dark matter, living metal and nanites.

Crystals/motes/gases are really in a different category: they're mid-game strategic resources that come into the picture at a certain level of technological and economic sophistication, like coal in the Industrial Revolution. I think they have a decent range of uses already, but I have a few gripes:
1. Given how integral to the overall economy they become in the mid-game, they ought to be displayed prominently at the top of the screen like minerals/energy/food/CGs/alloys are (at least if the player's screen resolution is large enough). The current setup where you need to look at a tooltip is a real nuisance.
2. Because of how critical these resources are for building up to high population densities, there needs to be some synthetic production option eventually, so I don't have a problem with chemists etc. What I don't like though is that the technology extract these resources from nature takes so long to appear, and then the tech to synthesize them comes almost immediately afterwards. I would like there to be a phase in the game of a few decades where you can make good use of any natural deposits, but can't synthesize rare resources, so that there's a reason to fight over the deposits and you have to decide carefully how to use your limited supply.
3. Dust caverns etc as rare planetary features are disappointing, for a similar reason. OK, so this planet has motes in it, say. But to get the motes, you have to build a building to extract the motes, and have a pop work it. What's the difference from just building a chemical plant? The main difference I can see is that the chemist eats 10 minerals whereas the mote harvester doesn't. So effectively what you're gaining is not motes at all, but rather 10 minerals, but it's a flat 10 minerals gained, not boosted by mining bonuses. On the scale of a planet, this is not very exciting. I think it would be better if instead, dust caverns were a special type of mining district, and the 2 miners working there produced motes in addition to their normal mineral production.