We need a bunch of new buildings

[Flame13223]

Right now there's a bit of an issue that I have with the way the production chains are done.

For one, almost all the higher tier resources are made from minerals. Which is a shame. Consumer goods are good in that trade can give them as well but alloys, crystals, gasses, motes they're only made by either a direct tap that's kinda rare or you build refinery planets. I wish there were buildings that turned alloys into consumer goods or turned dark matter into energy or crystals into motes or motes into gasses or gasses into crystals. You already have a building that uses motes to make minerals and a building that turns minerals into motes...but there could be vastly complex resource chains and unique buildings or high tech buildings that do a lot more.


Secondly, whenever I build a rural planet, where I just want minerals, energy and food I run into the issue that I need to go the full trade value clerk jobs route because there's nothing else for me to build into the building slots except hydroponic farms but it changes from rural to agri if I build to many of those and there's no mineral or energy building. Which I mean I get why there wouldn't be one specifically for them but you could have OTHER rural building types. There's not enough options for worker jobs for rural planets and you kinda need rural planets because there's not enough specialist jobs either, almost all specialists use minerals in some way, some use them in consumer goods form but those cost minerals to make so you cannot have too many specialist based planets without your mineral income tanking drastically. We need more buildings to fill out the gaps on both rural and urban planets.

Lastly, there's a bunch of high-end resources that have nearly no use. Living metal, dark matter and zro are pretty much useless for most of the game. Dark matter you don't have any way of using until you kill Fallen empires, despite you being able to "mine" it a LOT earlier than that. Living metal is only used for Megastructure build speed isn't it? There's no other use is there? Its kind of disappointing that the most valuable and rare resources are nigh-on useless. At least Crystals and Gasses and Motes have buildings that use them. What good are dark matter deposits if nothing uses it? There should be dark matter reactor buildings and Living metal factories and Zro unity buildings and stuff.

 

[westamastaflash]

I for one would like to see Living Metal Armor or Hull for ships as a component that grants big boosts to armor and hull regeneration as an upgrade from regen hull tissue and requires living metal upkeep. Might need a building to produce it... same for dark matter and zro. Some way to produce them would be nice.

 

[Bankipriel]

Some really good ideas here. I would particularly love to see a few more rural buildings and ways to do more with rare resources through specialized buildings. Especially things like getting energy from dark matter, making motes from crystals, gases from motes, crystals from gases, and maybe some advanced robotics buildings that use living metal?

Regarding your last point, I have some hope that we will we see more with these in the future. Back during the dev diaries, Wiz talked about how upkeep in the game was completely re-coded so that under the hood, everything was working in the same structure, which would allow them to potentially do something like make biological ships that used food for upkeep. Perhaps we'll see some more interesting things along this line in the future. The impression I got from the dev diary was that that wanted to do stuff like that, but the first step was the overhaul in 2.2.

Whether we do or don't see this stuff in official release (I certainly hope we do), I'm very optimistic about what the modding community will produce now that the system has been opened up for them to change. There were some really, truly impressive economic overhauls prior to 2.2. I suspect that once some of those people have time to get familiar with the new code and time to work on it, we'll see overhaul mods that do everything you're asking for and more.

 

[AlanC9]

I wish there were buildings that turned alloys into consumer goods

Huh? If that's what you want, why not replace a foundry with a factory?

Living metal, dark matter and zro are pretty much useless for most of the game. Dark matter you don't have any way of using until you kill Fallen empires, despite you being able to "mine" it a LOT earlier than that.

RNGesus must hate me. By the time I got the dark matter mining option I could always take on an FE. (Unless I got that planetside event chain, but that's not predictable.)

 

[Flame13223]

Some really good ideas here. I would particularly love to see a few more rural buildings and ways to do more with rare resources through specialized buildings. Especially things like getting energy from dark matter, making motes from crystals, gases from motes, crystals from gases, and maybe some advanced robotics buildings that use living metal?

I for one would like to see Living Metal Armor or Hull for ships as a component that grants big boosts to armor and hull regeneration as an upgrade from regen hull tissue and requires living metal upkeep. Might need a building to produce it... same for dark matter and zro. Some way to produce them would be nice.

Oh yeah, robots and ships would be great with Living metal options. Also wouldn't mind nanites for factories. Perhaps even link multiple resources together as late-game options for tall players, for example a building that costs like 1 crystal, 1 mote and 1 gas to upkeep but produces alloys at a much more efficient rate than normal foundries that only consume 1 resource type.

I've been thinking that a generic building that produces all basic resources but in very small quantities could be good too. Basically a filler type building for rural planets when you don't really need something specialized/specific. Just something to make when you want a little bit of everything, food, minerals, energy. Right now a lot of my rural planets become urban planets real quickly as the pops rise and I have no buildings to plot down I tend to just turn them into refineries or industrial worlds.

 

[Flame13223]

Huh? If that's what you want, why not replace a foundry with a factory?

1) Variety
2) Conversion rate on a late-game building might be better.
3) You might get a lot of consumer goods from trade already.

RNGesus must hate me. By the time I got the dark matter mining option I could always take on an FE. (Unless I got that planetside event chain, but that's not predictable.)

I have 3000 dark matter in one of my playthroughs with +2 per month and the Khan just rose up now...its definitely an RNG thing. Since there's no way to produce dark matter (why isn't there?) we have to rely on RNG. I also had systems with 8 crystals in them and I didn't get crystal ming as a research option for like 50 years after I claimed that system. Because why not...

 

[Flame13223]

So here's an idea. Some others have voiced concerns that society research has buildings other than the research labs that provide whilst Physics and Engineering does not. And since monuments are spammable and upgradeable, you can have them up to lvl 2 on pretty much all your planets just for the unity alone, I thought about the following.

DISCLAIMER - Numbers are not final by any means, they're just an estimate/indication. Do not judge the ideas based on just the numbers.


Introduce a mid-game and a late-game option for both of Physics and Engineering that also provides some other benefit alongside it much like how society and unity are paired on the monument.

Mid-game option for physics:
Experimental weapons facility - Planet-unique
Provides 2 specialist job slots.
Jobs produce 7 base physics research, 2 naval capacity and defensive troops on the planet have 25% more damage
Consumes 4 energy and 3 consumer goods per job filled.
Upgraded version provides 5 specialist job slots but consumes 1 rare gasses.
(The reason behind the bonuses here is that this isn't meant to be spammed on every single planet. Its just something you can use as a buff to fortresses or for a little extra naval capacity)

Late-game option for Physics:
Dark matter power plant - Planet-unique
Provides 5 specialist job slots.
Jobs provide 15 base phyiscs research and 15 energy credits
Consumes 5 consumer goods per job slot
Upkeep 1 dark matter per month.
(Since physics is the shortest tech path it is possible that by the time you build one of these you haven't got much to research anymore. So that's why I wanted to add the energy credits as a benefit that you can still use even if you don't have anything to research)


Mid-game option for Engineering:
Planetary construction center - Planet-unique
Provides 2 specialist job slots and 2 housing
Jobs produce 5 engineering research
Reduces the build cost and time for districts and buildings on the planet by 10%]
Consumes 1 alloy per job.
Upgraded version - Reduces the build cost and time for disctricts and buildings on the planet by 20%
Provides 4 specialist job slots and 5 housing
Upkeep 1 volatile mote
(This is something that you'd want to build on a planet early on but perhaps swap it out later. The housing is there as a counterbalance so you don't just swap it out immediately as housing could be useful later as well. Especially on crowded planets)

Late-game option for Engineering
Living metal foundry - Planet unique
Provides 5 specialist job slots
Jobs produce 10 engineering and 5 alloys
Consumes 10 minerals and 3 consumer goods per job
Upkeep 1 living metal per month
(Similarly to the Dark Matter reactor I wanted to add alloys as a side-product in case you are at the end or close to the end of your engineering tech path. Since engineering is a much longer path than physics I reduced the number of research points you get a little to balance it out, especially since cost-effective alloy production is more useful than energy credits in the late game)

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

I don't know, man. I mean, more buildings and more variety are always welcome and there are a lot of neat ideas here.

But given how the AI struggles with what it already "knows", is it really sensible to suggest MORE things for it to consider?

Honestly, until the AI gets fixed somehow, adding more things to the game will just make everything worse for it.

 

[Flame13223]

I don't know, man. I mean, more buildings and more variety are always welcome and there are a lot of neat ideas here.

But given how the AI struggles with what it already "knows", is it really sensible to suggest MORE things for it to consider?

Honestly, until the AI gets fixed somehow, adding more things to the game will just make everything worse for it.

Worse? Its impossible for it to get worse, its already horrendously bad. Adding more things won't make it any worse because it cannot be any worse.

Besides, adding more building options via mods never affected the AI's ability to use them properly before 2.2 so I don't see how more buildings would cause any problems. They don't look at the buildings individually they just build whatever produces the most stuff of the resource that they need at the moment. Of course the AI used to be bad before as well so its not like this is a new issue.

First and foremost when it comes to the AI, they should learn how to clear tile blockers because they don't at the moment.

 

[The Boz]

I for one would like to see Living Metal

This. Zro and Living Metal are the only things I haven't encounterd post 2.2.

 

[Flame13223]

This. Zro and Living Metal are the only things I haven't encounterd post 2.2.

Living metal made from alloys and maybe rare crystals or gasses?
Zro made from rare gasses and perhaps food/consumer goods?

Would be great to have buildings for that.

 

[The Boz]

Living metal made from alloys and maybe rare crystals or gasses?
Zro made from rare gasses and perhaps food/consumer goods?

Would be great to have buildings for that.

Yep.

 

[Person012345]

Not to be that guy but this sort of thing is what mods are ideal for.

 

[Sayakus]

Some hybrid and power generation buildings could be a nice addition.
For minerals Power-Matter converter.
Would add nice flexibility instead of spamming millions of clerks.

 

[Flame13223]

Not to be that guy but this sort of thing is what mods are ideal for.

Yeah but being that guy is one of the things that tilts me so much I lose my $hit because I do not think its a valid argument for anything. So yeah, don't be that guy.

Some hybrid and power generation buildings could be a nice addition.
For minerals Power-Matter converter.
Would add nice flexibility instead of spamming millions of clerks.

I'd love some addition of a multi-purpose production like rural markets or something that produces food, minerals, consumer goods but in very small quantities and instead of specialists only needs workers.

Vice versa could also work for urban planets, specialists that produce minerals/energy.

 

[Person012345]

Yeah but being that guy is one of the things that tilts me so much I lose my $hit because I do not think its a valid argument for anything. So yeah, don't be that guy.

I wasn't, really, since I don't think it's inherently an argument not to add it to the game. I'm just saying. It's pretty much what the mod tools were explicitly made for, is this sort of thing. The arguments against adding it would be overcomplicating the system, upsetting the balance the devs had in mind, it being an extremely low overall priority, some of the buildings being redundant as people have pointed out etc. etc. I'm sure many more good reasons will be added. I'm just saying, this is what mods are ideal for and it might be worth looking into if you really want these things in the game. I am personally waiting to see if the CGM guys have anything planned in the way of reworking and adding buildings as they did pre-2.2.

 

[Flame13223]

I wasn't, really, since I don't think it's inherently an argument not to add it to the game. I'm just saying. It's pretty much what the mod tools were explicitly made for, is this sort of thing. The arguments against adding it would be overcomplicating the system, upsetting the balance the devs had in mind, it being an extremely low overall priority, some of the buildings being redundant as people have pointed out etc. etc. I'm sure many more good reasons will be added. I'm just saying, this is what mods are ideal for and it might be worth looking into if you really want these things in the game. I am personally waiting to see if the CGM guys have anything planned in the way of reworking and adding buildings as they did pre-2.2.

Well yeah mods are good for enhancing an already existing game but they are not a replacement for making a good/balanced/content-rich/full game. At least they shouldn't be...but I guess thanks to a certain company that makes RPG games its now expected for mods to do all the work.

 

[_Chrysippus_]

Not to nitpick but alloys wouldn't translate well into consumer goods. You wouldn't necessarily strip aircraft carrier armor and try to make desks out of it, but I digress. Buildings that turn other materials into strat. resources would be nice, but I'm not sure turning crystals into motes is thematically viable, you wouldn't use a credit card to pay off a credit bill. That being said, I would like to see food be used for more as having a food surplus doesn't do anything anymore.

 

[Delthor]

For one, almost all the higher tier resources are made from minerals.

I think it's great. It means that mineral production is a core limiting factor of any empire. In a given amount of space, there's a cap on how many minerals you can get from it. Even with megastructures, which can increase it by a huge 1000-1500 depending on edicts, you are still limited because you can only build one matter decompressor and none of the other megastructures can help with minerals. So if you want to continue growing, you have to expand, conquer, or use the market. And even the market has its limits.

Secondly, whenever I build a rural planet, where I just want minerals, energy and food I run into the issue that I need to go the full trade value clerk jobs route because there's nothing else for me to build into the building slots except hydroponic farms but it changes from rural to agri if I build to many of those and there's no mineral or energy building.

Once you have your rural worlds full of everything you need from them, stop pop growth. It diverts all but ~0.3 growth (about 1 pop per 300 years) into emigration, which increases pop growth on your other planets, where the growth is more valuable. Having growth in places where you need it is far more valuable than the few perks you get from building up a larger pop base on rural worlds.

Yeah but being that guy is one of the things that tilts me so much I lose my $hit because I do not think its a valid argument for anything. So yeah, don't be that guy.

You're the one who looks at a tight, cleverly designed system that covers all bases and has almost nothing that isn't needed and says "Hey, let's add more!" Mods are 100% for people who want to expand the content beyond all reason. I don't want to see more at this point. Instead, I want to see quality in what we have, mainly AI improvements and balance fixes to a few outliers (ecumenopolises being too good, megastructures being kind of meh, etc.). At least until they start working on the next expansion, which is a whole different deal.

If you want more buildings for the sake of having more buildings, that's something mods handle perfectly fine without bloating the game for everyone else. We have one for planet modifiers, ships, ethics, traditions, traits, and more. I've tried those kinds of mods a few times, but it feels like they add more bloat than they're worth. I don't want to see that design philosophy creep into the vanilla game's design.

 

[Flame13223]

I think it's great. It means that mineral production is a core limiting factor of any empire. In a given amount of space, there's a cap on how many minerals you can get from it. Even with megastructures, which can increase it by a huge 1000-1500 depending on edicts, you are still limited because you can only build one matter decompressor and none of the other megastructures can help with minerals. So if you want to continue growing, you have to expand, conquer, or use the market. And even the market has its limits.

How is that a good thing? A bunch of resources are literally unused right now. The current system is just a skeleton, it needs a LOT more things to be built upon it before its a fully fledged well developed game and guess what Paradox will do that over time, they just released the game early before the holidays and will continue to add upon it afterwards as post-release free content updates just like they did with all the other expansions.

Once you have your rural worlds full of everything you need from them, stop pop growth. It diverts all but ~0.3 growth (about 1 pop per 300 years) into emigration, which increases pop growth on your other planets, where the growth is more valuable. Having growth in places where you need it is far more valuable than the few perks you get from building up a larger pop base on rural worlds.

Why would you stop pop growth on a planet? Pop growth is always a good thing, I could just resettle everyone myself if I wanted to but that's not what I want, the planet isn't developed fully it literally has massive gaping holes in the building slots, you use at best 4-5 buildings outside the capital on a fully rural world which is a shame.

Instead, I want to see quality in what we have, mainly AI improvements and balance fixes to a few outliers (ecumenopolises being too good, megastructures being kind of meh, etc.). At least until they start working on the next expansion, which is a whole different deal.

That's WHAT I WANT. Quality in the building system. Better production chains, all the resources used properly. More options for different empires and playstyles. More tech paths to go down on. I want mroe variety right now the system is very bare bones, it lacks a lot of the things that are essential for a good production chain to work. The market came out completely broken, the economy is being rebalanced as we speak as tons of ppl complained that it was also broken. The AI has always been crap, and it probably will stay kinda bad even after it gets some fixes because AI is the hardest thing to do. Making new buildings is not that hard.