"We know too little about this region!" Supremacy Oddities

[Simon_9732495]

Yes, three decryption, on the right side.

Ok, I tested it again, it seems to be like that:

The 25% you have on Japan are from: Fascist: +10%, Closed Economy: +0%, Your Decryption3 and enemy Encryption3: +15%

Calculation of naval Intel efficiency:

Part 1 Ideology of enemy:

• Democratic: +20%
• Non aligned: +20%
• Communist: +12.5%
• Fascist: +10%

Part 2 Economic law of enemy:

• Free trade: +20%
• Export focus: +10%
• Limited exports: +5%
• Closed economy: +0%

Part 3 Your Decryption and enemy Encryption:

• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption0: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption1: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption2: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption3: +0%
• 
  
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption0: +30%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption1: +15%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption2: +10%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption3: +7.5%
• 
  
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption0: +45%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption1: +22.5%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption2: +15%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption3: +11.2%
• 
  
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption0: +60%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption1: +30%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption2: +20%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption3: +15%

Part 4 Radar

• Radars that cover any seazone with enemy ships, can provide up to +20% naval intel efficiency. Naval intel gathered per radar is only one value per country. Naval intel about the UK gathered per Radar over the english channel can provide naval intel efficiency for a naval invasion in the Mediterranean Sea.

Part 5 Fighting the enemy navy:

• Gained naval intel from naval fights decays by around -0.2%/week

That means, if Japan is Fascist has Closed Economy and has Encryption 3 you can get at best 25% naval intel efficiency against them without fighting their navy.

But in my test Japan is often changing the orders of the fleet. Then you get naval intel efficiency 100% for a moment. (When Japan has _nothing_ assigned to the seazone).
So starting the invasion orders, setting navy on Convoy raid, patrol and strike force or maybe even routing the own convoys through the zone and using convoy escort may be worth a try.
The naval invasion may start a some point.

//Edit:
See also in the HOI4 wiki: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Battle_plan#Naval_intel_efficiency

//edited radar influence

 

[Harin]

Ok, I tested it again, it seems to be like that:

The 25% you have on Japan are from: Fascist: +10%, Closed Economy: +0%, Your Decryption3 and enemy Encryption3: +15%

Calculation of naval Intel efficiency:

Part 1 Ideology of enemy:

• Democratic: +20%
• Non aligned: +20%
• Communist: +12.5%
• Fascist: +10%

Part 2 Economic law of enemy:

• Free trade: +20%
• Export focus: +10%
• Limited exports: +5%
• Closed economy: +0%

Part 3 Your Decryption and enemy Encryption:

• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption0: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption1: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption2: +0%
• Your Decryption0, enemy Encryption3: +0%
• 
  
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption0: +30%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption1: +15%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption2: +10%
• Your Decryption1, enemy Encryption3: +7.5%
• 
  
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption0: +45%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption1: +22.5%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption2: +15%
• Your Decryption2, enemy Encryption3: +11.2%
• 
  
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption0: +60%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption1: +30%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption2: +20%
• Your Decryption3, enemy Encryption3: +15%

Part 4 Fighting the enemy navy:

• Gained naval intel from naval fights decays by around -0.2%/week

That means, if Japan is Fascist has Closed Economy and has Encryption 3 you can get at best 25% naval intel efficiency against them without fighting their navy.

But in my test Japan is often changing the orders of the fleet. Then you get naval intel efficiency 100% for a moment. (When Japan has _nothing_ assigned to the seazone).
So starting the invasion orders, setting navy on Convoy raid, patrol and strike force or maybe even routing the own convoys through the zone and using convoy escort may be worth a try.
The naval invasion may start a some point.

Thanks @Simon_9732495 for taking the time to break this down for us. You laid it out so well, it now seems simple to understand. Since this has been a recurring question on the forums, such a clear answer was needed.

On top of the mechanics you even noticed that the Japanese AI was changing orders a lot and allowing invasions to launch if we have them activated. I was invading Japan last night and I could not understand why I was randomly losing and gaining naval supremacy over 50%. Now I know what was going on.

 

[Simon_9732495]

A summarized my findings in a wiki section: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Battle_plan#Naval_intel_efficiency

I also found that for improving naval intel with radar coverage, it doesn't matter where you have the radar coverage, because there is only one naval intel value. It's per country and not per seazone. (But the radar has to cover enemy ships on missions.)
A radar that covers the english channel (where the royal navy is on mission) gives naval intel about the UK. That naval intel increases the naval intel efficiency against the UK all over the world.

Thanks @Simon_9732495 for taking the time to break this down for us. You laid it out so well, it now seems simple to understand. Since this has been a recurring question on the forums, such a clear answer was needed.

Glad if it helps.

I hope some people check my "theories" and tell me if I got something wrong. (Or just do a spellcheck on the wiki, because I'm not a native speaker...)


//edited radar influence.

 

[Harin]

I also found that for improving naval intel with radar coverage, it doesn't matter where you have the radar coverage, because there is only one naval intel value. It's per country and not per seazone.
A radar that covers england gives intel about the UK. That intel increases the naval intel efficiency against the UK all over the world.

That is the first time I have heard anyone mention this. I can understand it for game mechanics, but it is so un-intuitive, I suspect a lot of radars have been built in the game in the wrong place.

*Edit

Sorry for my unclear language above. So not to confuse others, I want to point out that @Simon_9732495 meant the above to apply ONLY for the intel mechanic, not for spotting and combat modifiers. I have had so much trouble with naval intel messing up my naval supremacy that I was not clear in my remark above about what I was talking about.

 

[Simon_9732495]

That is the first time I have heard anyone mention this. I can understand it for game mechanics, but it is so un-intuitive, I suspect a lot of radars have been built in the game in the wrong place.

Wait, I'm only talking about the naval intel you get from radar.
For all the other things radar gives (e.g. for air combat, naval spotting and so on) it is per strategic region (the air and sea zones).

I suspect not many radars have been built so far to increase naval intel efficiency.

 

[Mousetick]

That is the first time I have heard anyone mention this. I can understand it for game mechanics, but it is so un-intuitive, I suspect a lot of radars have been built in the game in the wrong place.

Yes I agree it doesn't make any sense regarding the effect on naval intelligence. The more we discover about naval intelligence, the more of a botched job it looks like. And none of it is shown, even less explained, anywhere in any tooltip.

But radars have other effects, such as bonuses to air and naval detection, which are limited to their coverage area. So placement still matters.

 

[Harin]

Wait, I'm only talking about the naval intel you get from radar.
For all the other things radar gives (e.g. for air combat, naval spotting and so on) it is per strategic region (the air and sea zones).

I suspect not many radars have been built so far to increase naval intel efficiency.

Thanks @Simon_9732495 for pointing out how my post sounded! I do not want to confuse others after you have discovered something many of us did not know.

Unfortunately, for me, I have tried building radars in places I cannot get naval supremacy due to lack of intel, in a hope to save an iron man game or two. I now know that is not going to work, even if they do provide their normal benefits.

 

[Mousetick]

At the very least the Naval Supremacy tooltip should say something like "We know too little about the enemy's navy!" instead of "We know too little about this region!". The current wording is very misleading, since ALL* naval intelligence modifiers are country-based, and have nothing to do with the specific sea region. Sigh.

(*) I'm assuming the naval intelligence gained by naval combat is global. That is, if there is a naval battle in the English Channel against a specific country, the resulting naval intelligence obtained from this battle is also used to determine naval intelligence in the Pacific, or anywhere else against that same country.

 

[Mousetick]

A summarized my findings in a wiki section: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Battle_plan#Naval_intel_efficiency

I hope some people check my "theories" and tell me if I got something wrong. (Or just do a spellcheck on the wiki, because I'm not a native speaker...)

This is beautiful, great investigation and documentation work thank you!

Some comments:
- It seems that Enemy Ideology, Enemy Trade Law, and Radar Coverage are factors with or without La Resistance. As can be seen in the Intel Ledger screenshot. But the way the text is currently structured leads the reader to believe that they are only significant without LaR. Perhaps this part could be restructured into 3 subsections, like: common factors, with LaR factors, without LaR factors?
- Fighting the enemy navy: is this a common factor too, or only a factor without LaR?

Less important:
- It might be more logical to put the 'Naval intel efficiency' section after the 'Naval supremacy' section, because the first sentence refers to naval supremacy without it being explained beforehand:

To be able to get naval supremacy, you have to have at least 30% naval intelligence efficiency.

- Alternatively, naval supremacy could be linked to the section below:

To be able to get naval supremacy, you have to have at least 30% naval intelligence efficiency.

- The 'Naval supremacy' section would need to be updated at some point to include the +30% naval intel requirement.

I won't spend time specifically to verify your theories, but I think your addition to the wiki is a great starting point to reference, compare and validate in the course of playing games in the future. I also expect we'll see many more posts like "We know too little about this region! ????" on this forum, providing more opportunities.

And now, what about Air intel?

 

[DiscipleP]

A summarized my findings in a wiki section: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Battle_plan#Naval_intel_efficiency

I also found that for improving naval intel with radar coverage, it doesn't matter where you have the radar coverage, because there is only one naval intel value. It's per country and not per seazone.
A radar that covers england gives intel about the UK. That intel increases the naval intel efficiency against the UK all over the world.


Glad if it helps.

I hope some people check my "theories" and tell me if I got something wrong. (Or just do a spellcheck on the wiki, because I'm not a native speaker...)

Thanks a lot for your help. I didn't find it in Wiki before.

So I had the worst situation then. Japan is fascist, with closed economy, level 3 encryption researched, 0 convoy and no active fleet. The only choice is to build radars.

Problem is, the naval invasion plan was targeting on Soviet Union's territory. Both Japan and Soviet have access to that sea. Why is Japan taken as my enemy only?

 

[Simon_9732495]

This is beautiful, great investigation and documentation work thank you!

Some comments:
- It seems that Enemy Ideology, Enemy Trade Law, and Radar Coverage are factors with or without La Resistance. As can be seen in the Intel Ledger screenshot. But the way the text is currently structured leads the reader to believe that they are only significant without LaR. Perhaps this part could be restructured into 3 subsections, like: common factors, with LaR factors, without LaR factors?
- Fighting the enemy navy: is this a common factor too, or only a factor without LaR?

Less important:
- It might be more logical to put the 'Naval intel efficiency' section after the 'Naval supremacy' section, because the first sentence refers to naval supremacy without it being explained beforehand:

- Alternatively, naval supremacy could be linked to the section below:

- The 'Naval supremacy' section would need to be updated at some point to include the +30% naval intel requirement.

I won't spend time specifically to verify your theories, but I think your addition to the wiki is a great starting point to reference, compare and validate in the course of playing games in the future. I also expect we'll see many more posts like "We know too little about this region! ????" on this forum, providing more opportunities.

And now, what about Air intel?

Thank you for your feedback. I restructured the article. (Also found 2 new factors with LaR) I think the section should be before naval supremacy. I added some links.
Would be great, if you had a look again!

 

[Simon_9732495]

Problem is, the naval invasion plan was targeting on Soviet Union's territory. Both Japan and Soviet have access to that sea. Why is Japan taken as my enemy only?

I tried to describe that in the wiki.
What matters is who is contributing to naval supremacy in a seazone. If the Soviet Union has no ships there but Japan has and you are at war with Japan, only the naval intel you have from Japan matters.

Maybe you have time to read the wiki again and can suggest how that can be desribed clearer...

 

[Simon_9732495]

I found that my desription of the influence of radar on naval intel was not 100% correct. You need radar coverage of seazones with ships (with missions) of the country to get naval intel.
For example radar in south eastern Poland is not giving naval intel about the Soviet Union. If you build a radar in Romania that covers the black sea you get intel. If the soviets put the black sea fleet on hold -> no intel anymore.

I edited some posts and the wiki...

 

[Mousetick]

Would be great, if you had a look again!

I'm seeing a few changes, mainly the back-and-forth links between naval supremacy and naval intel, but no restructuring. Perhaps not all the changes have been 'published' to the public version or there is some caching going on. Or I'm blind.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I'm seeing a few changes, mainly the back-and-forth links between naval supremacy and naval intel, but no restructuring. Perhaps not all the changes have been 'published' to the public version or there is some caching going on. Or I'm blind.

I did the 3 sections you proposed. (Common, with LaR, without LaR)
And I can see it on 2 PCs and even via proxy server. Maybe CRTL+F5 helps?

 

[Mousetick]

I did the 3 sections you proposed. (Common, with LaR, without LaR)

Yeah I figured it might be something like that, but I'm not seeing it, even after several reloads. When I view the page history, it shows all your edits (including the restructuring). But the last change that's visible to me is:
07:30, 24 June 2020‎ Simon 9732495 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (31,741 bytes) (+31)‎ . . (→‎Naval intel efficiency: Add captured enemy operatives.)

So it must be a caching thing. It's no biggie, I'll check back later.

 

[Mousetick]

@Simon_9732495

I looked at the updated version of the wiki. It's fine. I don't know if you care about typos, formatting and such, but in case you do, I have a few suggestions below. I colored the differences in green, I hope it's legible.

Other than that, should it be mentioned somewhere that the naval intel efficiency is the sum of all the factors? Otherwise it may not be obvious how the various factors are combined together to obtain the final value.

Before: If you are not at war, you have 100% naval intel efficiency everywhere.
After: If you are not at war, you have 100% naval intel efficiency everywhere.

Before: (More precise: In which this country has nothing, that contributes to naval supremacy.
After: (More precisely: In which this country has nothing, that contributes to naval supremacy.

Before: There are several factors how naval intel efficiency can be gathered:
After: There are several factors that contribute to naval intel efficiency:

Before: (Gained naval intel from naval fights decays by around -0.2%/week.)
After: (Naval intel gained from naval battles decays by around -0.2%/week.)

Before: Factors on naval intel efficiency exclusive with the DLC La Résistance:
After: Factors on naval intel efficiency exclusive to the DLC La Résistance:
Or: Factors on naval intel efficiency only with the DLC La Résistance:

Before: Intelligence agency upgrade Naval Department (+25% not additonal. Increaes all other factors by 25%)
After: Naval Department Intelligence agency upgrade (+25% not additional. Increases all other factors by 25%)
Note: I don't understand what is meant by "+25% not additional. Increases all other factors by 25%" (might be obvious to LaR owners, I don't know)

Hope this helps. Thanks.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I don't know if you care about typos, formatting and such, but in case you do, I have a few suggestions below. I colored the differences in green, I hope it's legible.

I do care about these things. But if I see a chance to win contributors to the wiki, I'll take it:
It's a wiki. (A wiki (/ˈwɪki/ ( listen) WIK-ee) is a hypertext publication collaboratively edited and managed by its own audience directly using a web browser.)
Please feel free to click the edit button, do the changes, give a small description what you changed, preview and check it and save the article!

Note: I don't understand what is meant by "+25% not additional. Increases all other factors by 25%" (might be obvious to LaR owners, I don't know)

With LaR you can have a intel agency and do various updates for it. One update is called "Naval Department" and gives +25% naval intel. But this +25% is not added to naval intel as all other factors are. First all others are added up an then you get +25% OF THAT on top.
E.g. If you have 10% naval intel and you do "Naval Department", you have 12.5% afterwards. You DO NOT have 35%.

Hope this helps.

Yep. Thank you!

 

[Mousetick]

Please feel free to click the edit button, do the changes, give a small description what you changed, preview and check it and save the article!

Ok, done. I forgot to add a change summary (the 'Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary' option in the Preferences should be the default).

How do you guys coordinate and vet the changes? It seems there is no review process before the edits are accepted.
I'd like to suggest a couple more changes to the Naval Intel section, this time regarding the content rather than the form, but I feel like we're 'polluting' this thread with our wiki chat. Is there a separate discussion channel that's more appropriate?

 

[Colonel_Kraken]

Thank you to everyone for adding information of how the game currently works with naval intel. Unfortunately, I think it's super-silly since I can have a very large navy in a sea zone with swarms of ships, spotter planes from ships, carriers with planes, planes from land on naval attack in the sea zone and still not be able to obtain supremacy (in fact, 0%!) all because I don't happen to have all the decryption techs and the enemy has closed economy, etc? Now, I can't perform a amphibious assault? I'm sorry, but that seems all completely wrong to me.

Naval intelligence during the war allowed a nation to anticipate the enemy's moves (think Midway) but not having such intelligence against the enemy did not prevent amphibious landings, though could result in less than desirable outcomes for the attacker (think Coral Sea). "We do not know enough about this region" is too restrictive of a game mechanic based on what I read above.

Is there a way I can modify / change this in the defines or something?