We don't have to focus on memes anymore thanks

[TheSeraphim]

You succeeded in making CK3 the meme game of September so it would be nice if we could focus on real game mechanics for at least a year. You did a good job at making sure only the nudists faiths and sister-banging religions worked on release it would be nice if religions that actually matter had actual mechanics that are worth a damn, hell Orthodox is still waiting for it's CK2 mechanic expansion. I'm glad Ruler designer wasn't included at launch so more things could be worked on like... Crusades that might be worse then base CK2 crusades if we count Pope Mercs.

At least the guy who worked on the earnings spreadsheets for September at the office is happy.

 

[Zhetone]

yeah for me and I imagine for others who stopped playing the lack of depth has become clear, as well as the glaring mistakes made in the design of the game. regardless of how many people try to excuse the things which people dislike, there is much work needed to flesh out the game and I think for a lot of people "meme gameplay" does not give the game longevity

that coupled with really obnoxious implementation of some mechanics makes me not want to play because I run into the same annoying things every save I start. while I see why people want a ruler designer I hope they put off releasing it until the base game is fun

 

[DavidBrewster]

The game could definitely benefit from more content, but I hope they don't start going in circles endlessly reworking mechanics. So if we're talking about adding more things to make Orthodox unique, I'm on board. But I don't want this game to get the Stellaris or Imperator treatment.

Edit

And I do want to say that I already enjoy this game more than 2. I don't think it's a meme game at all. If anything it's way less heavy on horse popes and animal modes than 2 became at the end.

 

[Zhetone]

The game could definitely benefit from more content, but I hope they don't start going in circles endlessly reworking mechanics. So if we're talking about adding more things to make Orthodox unique, I'm on board. But I don't want this game to get the Stellaris or Imperator treatment.

on the other hand it's full of half-baked mechanics, bugs, and questionable design decisions. I definitely want fervor reworked for example before they start having us pay for content

 

[DavidBrewster]

on the other hand it's full of half-baked mechanics, bugs, and questionable design decisions. I definitely want fervor reworked for example before they start having us pay for content

Why do you want fervor reworked? I think maybe it should be tweaked slightly, i.e., change some of the values a little, but I don't really understand why it needs reworking.

 

[Zhetone]

Why do you want fervor reworked? I think maybe it should be tweaked slightly, i.e., change some of the values a little, but I don't really understand why it needs reworking.

because it's terrible and is a mechanic designed specifically to handicap catholicism

there is no reason there should be massive heresy outbreaks constantly and an impossibility to convert lands. the entire religious system is, quite frankly, terrible in this game

 

[DavidBrewster]

because it's terrible and is a mechanic designed specifically to handicap catholicism

there is no reason there should be massive heresy outbreaks constantly and an impossibility to convert lands. the entire religious system is, quite frankly, terrible in this game

Rather than throwing out the whole system and starting over, I think you could work on that problem by just making it a little harder for heresies to spread. I.e., vassals are less likely to convert. Heresy should constantly be a problem. I agree that it spreads somewhat too easily. I disagree that we need new systems to fix it. The new religious system is one of my favorite parts of the game.

 

[Zhetone]

Rather than throwing out the whole system and starting over, I think you could work on that problem by just making it a little harder for heresies to spread. I.e., vassals are less likely to convert. Heresy should constantly be a problem. I agree that it spreads somewhat too easily. I disagree that we need new systems to fix it. The new religious system is one of my favorite parts of the game.

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement then, I don't consider asking the same vassals to convert once every decade enjoyable or a good system for the game, nor do I consider the ineptitude and inevitable decline of Catholicism to be good for the game

 

[Yaitz331]

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement then, I don't consider asking the same vassals to convert once every decade enjoyable or a good system for the game, nor do I consider the ineptitude and inevitable decline of Catholicism to be good for the game

I mean, large outbreaks of heresies did happen, and took a lot of effort to put down. The Albigensian Crusade took two full decades of war to root out Catharism in Languedoc.

 

[The Andy-Man]

The base mechanics are fine. The balancing and implementation are terrible - this is pretty much standard vanilla paradox. I do agree with the sentiment of the OP, however, though in all honestly we will have to (once again) wait for mods to flesh out the game. Luckily CK3 has been well received, so it's unlikely the mod scene will die like EU:Rome 2.

I do wish that paradox would involve some of the big mods from the previous games during the development process though - they could only benefit from having a HIP mod, or GoT and so on, ready to go on release day, not to mention learn from how modders balance the game mechanics.

 

[Zhetone]

I mean, large outbreaks of heresies did happen, and took a lot of effort to put down. The Albigensian Crusade took two full decades of war to root out Catharism in Languedoc.

isn't it funny though how everyone points to literally one example where heresy spread within one in-game duchy with no powerful rulers adopting heresy, when in-game heresies spread everywhere and convert tons of dukes and more powerful rulers than that? doesn't it seem like maybe the current system doesn't reflect reality?

rulers in general should not be converting to heresy. the system is entirely inorganic, doesn't reflect reality, and is obnoxious.

 

[Yaitz331]

isn't it funny though how everyone points to literally one example where heresy spread within one in-game duchy with no powerful rulers adopting heresy, when in-game heresies spread everywhere and convert tons of dukes and more powerful rulers than that? doesn't it seem like maybe the current system doesn't reflect reality?

rulers in general should not be converting to heresy. the system is entirely inorganic, doesn't reflect reality, and is obnoxious.

The Hussite Wars also happened within CK3's timeframe.
The 1235-1241 Bosnian Crusade (closely connected to the Albigensian one) was also a thing that happened.

I think the problem is related not to heresies per se, but to how easily provinces flip religion and culture. If provinces were much more resistant to religion/culture flips, heresies would be rarer, but much more entrenched when they did pop up. That is much more historical then the current system.

 

[Zhetone]

The Hussite Wars also happened within CK3's timeframe.
The 1235-1241 Bosnian Crusade (closely connected to the Albigensian one) was also a thing that happened.

I think the problem is related not to heresies per se, but to how easily provinces flip religion and culture. If provinces were much more resistant to religion/culture flips, heresies would be rarer, but much more entrenched when they did pop up. That is much more historical then the current system.

So your examples are first of all the Hussites, whose religion was not adopted by anyone of significance (it was more of a popular revolt with support from some minor nobles) and a war of conquest by Hungary which was essentially the same as the Albigensian Crusade, i.e. popular spread of heresy unchecked by a ruler being grounds for war?

I don't think either example you gave does anything to conflict with my point.
My ideal system would be spread of heresy organically, culminating in popular revolts which may have support from minor nobles. The current system of dukes and counts in your realm becoming nudists because a Crusade was won is not only ahistorical but also incredibly stupid. The fervor system also just doesn't work in a way that makes any sense.

 

[durbal]

I mean, large outbreaks of heresies did happen, and took a lot of effort to put down. The Albigensian Crusade took two full decades of war to root out Catharism in Languedoc.

We don't have that though. We have Waldensians spawning randomly in Scotland, Irish 'insular Christians' in Bavaria, and right-clicking their portrait to ask them to convert with some of them deciding they'd like to openly commit suicide for no reason, even if they're a close family member or a spouse.

 

[Xenrek]

yeah for me and I imagine for others who stopped playing the lack of depth has become clear, as well as the glaring mistakes made in the design of the game. regardless of how many people try to excuse the things which people dislike, there is much work needed to flesh out the game and I think for a lot of people "meme gameplay" does not give the game longevity

that coupled with really obnoxious implementation of some mechanics makes me not want to play because I run into the same annoying things every save I start. while I see why people want a ruler designer I hope they put off releasing it until the base game is fun

its not lacking depth, its "accessible" and "new player friendly"! its a more "casual friendly experience"! that doesnt mean its watered down, simplified, or shallow at ~all~ /sarcasm

 

[Kerham]

Heresies deffinitely have a problem. There seem to be no reason implemented for them other than "oh I read about (say) Bogomilism in a book, sounds cool, I am in". Or "I am too stressed so ima gonna convert to Paulicianism". It's a choince on the same level with "I'll have an extra bottle of wine", which is ignorant.

It is good to see Bogomilism even existant in a game, but at least there should be an effort made for triggers. This one could for example have more and more chances with raising crown/tribal authority. Something else which was vital to Bogomilists (and vital to the whole Orthodox church itself, and pretty similar in the Catholicism) was the Patriarch's and, respectively, Pope, actual power and authority.

This authority doesn't even exist ingame and it's like half of the actual feudal world missing from the game. It should be a parameter in itself, similar to the crown authority, which should have actions and reasons for the Patriarchy itself. There should be Metropolitans, there should be anointing, there should be excomunicating with serious repercursions, and not "ah I don't like you in the quantity of -25" which is lolable.

There should be clerical decisions about fasting, there should be religious celebrations interfering with organizing of cities and villages, with agriculture organized around them etc.

There should be trading and priviledges, with borders actually meaning something.

There should be serfs and burghers.

And then yes, for example Bogomilism would have enough triggers. It could spread like the religion in eu4, if a heretic army ocupies a province, it is converted.

Not this joke where Orthodox in, say, southern Italy cannot convert anymore, say, some Catholics because somewhere in the steppes of Caucasus a pagan warlord has defeated a duke's holy war. Not meaning such things shouldn't be a thing, it seems reasonable. But their impact is ridiculous. Within 10 years I singlehandledly vanished Orthodoxy's fervor by defeating 4 holy wars of some dukes. It's absurd.

Holy wars themselves shouldn't be something which you can pull out of one's back every other month, just because you succesfully went to the church. There should be an effort, a holy war for a duchy should be one monarch's crowning pious achievement for a lifetime of religious work, not every two months effort of somebody who wants some extra tax and levy, for that there's claiming.

So, yea..

 

[williampsk]

More bookmarks as well. Its absurd I can't play as a Crusader State in a game called so. Especially when as of now, maybe 3/10 chance a Crusade will properly kick off due to the wonky fervor mechanic that someone else already mentioned.

 

[williampsk]

I knew this would be the case for so many of us when they announced that CK3 will be more "accessible" In the age of smartphones and apps, that only means dumbing down game mechanics and cutting corners

 

[GeneralPetrov]

This is just gonna be another 'DAE THINK THOSE STOOPID CASUAL MEMERS RUINED THE GAME?' thread isn't it? Because apparently we can't discuss our issues with the game without blaming people who play the game differently.

 

[Blk82]

The fever system basically works, but it does need fine-tuning. Currently, it seems to punish Catholicism for existing, as it is a bit overzealous in trying to prevent one religion from dominating the world. The heresy outbreaks now are a good bit less silly than all Nestorians filling to Messalianism.