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MJF

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So, in trying a different early build queue as Germany on normal/normal, 1.12, I decided to use AC's with my MOT's instead of the usual SP Artillery. My thinking was that, since the MOT's organization never keeps up with the armor, and AC's boost this, I'd try the sacrifice of the firepower for the organizational boost, given that pooped units aren't much good, no matter how strong they are.

It seems to have worked. Guderian, who just supported a successfut attack on Moscow after leading the surrounding pincer spearhead into Rybinsk, is showing the most organization loss of all my corps (all with 1 ARM/SP Art + 2 MOT/AC). All other MOT's are in better shape. Did I just get lucky, or is this the 'secret?"

GoodOrg.png
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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If you're playing vanilla AoD, it'd be really interesting to see how big the Red Army was before you invaded. I'm not sure the vanilla AI is set up for any sort of war pre-1941 (or perhaps even later :p )

The "secret" in vanilla AoD is attack the AI as early as you can, and as hard as you can. Works 99 times out of 100 :D
 

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If you're playing vanilla AoD, it'd be really interesting to see how big the Red Army was before you invaded. I'm not sure the vanilla AI is set up for any sort of war pre-1941 (or perhaps even later :p )

See below, plus ROM: ~ 20 Inf + 1 LA + 6 Cav, also HUN (4 ARM/HA Divisions + some INF), Spanish MT = maybe 12-15, and soon 6 BUL INF. I don't take command of Italy (unless briefly required to get them to take N. Africa/Suez).


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Barbarossa started at this point above (7/24/1940), and BP Triggered 10/13/1940. One of my earliest, but not my fastest.

You have to wait for all the Baltic States to fall, or it causes problems, not the least of-which is that you can't DOW a Baltic State or the Allies end up at war with the USSR. While I have enjoyed the occasional "Unholy Alliance" game, 3-way Risk-type stuff is too gamey!
The "secret" in vanilla AoD is attack the AI as early as you can, and as hard as you can. Works 99 times out of 100 :D
Well.....given that I wait for "Danzig or War!" to start fighting, that's what I do subsequently!

However, Honestly -- I only get about 94 out of 100 victories. Darn it.....

EDIT: IIRC, around 2 years ago Commander666 decided to do me one better, and started attacking almost right away, as Germany. He cleaned up, I believe.

I've often felt that my approach is the strategy that Germany should've used, to maximize their chances. Of course, hindsight.....

I believe I've read that Germany was concerned with their soldiers missing out working on their Fall farm harvests, and over any chance of fighting France in the coming bad weather.

Plus, no one really knew if there was actually going to be a war in the West. Hence "Sitzkrieg!"
 

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Mr_B0narpte

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So, looks like the Red Army built 0 new divisions between 1936 and July 1940. Welcome to vanilla AI :D

Decent Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine ! Looks like an invasion of the US will soon be on the table.
 
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Pang Bingxun

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I'm not sure the vanilla AI is set up for any sort of war pre-1941 (or perhaps even later :p )
More or less. Anything before 1941 will not be a challenge. Within 1941 it makes a huge difference whether you start your campaign in in may or august. For fair play one should wait at least till 1941/06/22.
 

MJF

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More or less. Anything before 1941 will not be a challenge. Within 1941 it makes a huge difference whether you start your campaign in in may or august. For fair play one should wait at least till 1941/06/22.
Fair??? This is WAR!
 

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See below, plus ROM: ~ 20 Inf + 1 LA + 6 Cav, also HUN (4 ARM/HA Divisions + some INF), Spanish MT = maybe 12-15, and soon 6 BUL INF. I don't take command of Italy (unless briefly required to get them to take N. Africa/Suez).


I believe I've read that Germany was concerned with their soldiers missing out working on their Fall farm harvests, and over any chance of fighting France in the coming bad weather.

Plus, no one really knew if there was actually going to be a war in the West. Hence "Sitzkrieg!"

MJF

On an historical note Germany, because of its massive military build up under the Nazis was always living very much hand to mouth and frequently only a step ahead of disaster until as much by luck as judgement they knocked out France. Even then they had problems resourcing both their continued military build up and the basic economy, with the latter very much in a distant 2nd at best.

I'm currently reading Tooze's "Wages of Destruction" which goes into a lot of detail with this and its very enlightening. A number of the more experienced troops, with special skills, were returned industrial work in the autumn of 1940 to help build up the army for the attack on Russia before returning to service for that campaign. Similarly while Barbarossa was starting Germany was switching priority from the army to the air force and navy for the expected conflict with the UK and US. This included a lot of longer term investment in new capacity to increase production 2-3 years down the line for that.

German agriculture was a mess with a lot of small peasant farmers that was very inefficient and from ~1940 was only really kept going with looting of other lands and a lot of foreign labour - from POWs and forced labour from occupied lands - to supplement the women and relatively few men left working the land.

A very interesting read and I strongly recommend it for anyone interested in the war in Europe. Germany was nothing like the economic colossus that it has to be in AoD for a balanced game as a non-German player.

Steve
 
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MJF

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So, looks like the Red Army built 0 new divisions between 1936 and July 1940. Welcome to vanilla AI :D

Decent Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine ! Looks like an invasion of the US will soon be on the table.
Well, that was the plan. This time I tried varying my early builds. I did more factories, less Infra, and almost no units until 1938. I also did not attack Sweden after taking DEN & NOR, as last time (Vanguard mod) after taking SWE, liberating Scandanavia, and releasing puppet (to avoid big dissent hit) my new independent friend annexed Finland, right after the Winter War! They never fired a shot. Later, right as I got the BP locations secured, Stalin had taken Helsinki. No BP. I was stretched too thin to do much about it, as it was early December 1040.

The above builds got me a smaller Navy, a few less units, More IC, but now massive Rares shortages. Since I hadn't faced that for a while, I didn't research Synthetic plant upgrades until just now. I had to practically give away all my stockpiles just to stay in business!

BadShape1.png


A big build of 4 ARM III's and then 6 MEC I's just finished, but with stacks of troops in labrador, Newfoundland and Andros, and waitimg for tech on NAV II's to finish so I can complete my queue of 8 squadrons -- and my Navy back at home ports awaiting upgrades, I'm terribly behind schedule!

The later vanilla patches have the USA build way past historical levels of mostly MEC's, and Armor.

OverPoweredYanks.png
 

Mr_B0narpte

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I'm currently reading Tooze's "Wages of Destruction" which goes into a lot of detail with this and its very enlightening. A number of the more experienced troops, with special skills, were returned industrial work in the autumn of 1940 to help build up the army for the attack on Russia before returning to service for that campaign. Similarly while Barbarossa was starting Germany was switching priority from the army to the air force and navy for the expected conflict with the UK and US. This included a lot of longer term investment in new capacity to increase production 2-3 years down the line for that.
Very interesting - bought the book about a week ago due to all the good reviews about it. The economic aspect of the war does fascinate me, I just haven't got round to reading it yet!

Well, that was the plan. This time I tried varying my early builds. I did more factories, less Infra, and almost no units until 1938. I also did not attack Sweden after taking DEN & NOR, as last time (Vanguard mod) after taking SWE, liberating Scandanavia, and releasing puppet (to avoid big dissent hit) my new independent friend annexed Finland, right after the Winter War! They never fired a shot. Later, right as I got the BP locations secured, Stalin had taken Helsinki. No BP. I was stretched too thin to do much about it, as it was early December 1040.

The above builds got me a smaller Navy, a few less units, More IC, but now massive Rares shortages. Since I hadn't faced that for a while, I didn't research Synthetic plant upgrades until just now. I had to practically give away all my stockpiles just to stay in business!
Good to hear the AI responding relatively well after BP. Also good to hear that resources actually have a role to play in vanilla - I just remember players barely experiencing shortages of any kind in most of our games. That said, your IC is enormous by vanilla standards! Taking Malaysia and the Dutch East Indies should solve all your problems though.

A big build of 4 ARM III's and then 6 MEC I's just finished, but with stacks of troops in labrador, Newfoundland and Andros, and waitimg for tech on NAV II's to finish so I can complete my queue of 8 squadrons -- and my Navy back at home ports awaiting upgrades, I'm terribly behind schedule!

The later vanilla patches have the USA build way past historical levels of mostly MEC's, and Armor.
Good to see the USA AI actually preparing for war, your invasion looks to be a tough one!

Defeating France, the UK and the USSR by October 1940 is pretty on top of schedule if you ask me :D
 
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MJF

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Very interesting - bought the book about a week ago due to all the good reviews about it. The economic aspect of the war does fascinate me, I just haven't got round to reading it yet!
Now y'all got me to buy the book!
Good to hear the AI responding relatively well after BP. Also good to hear that resources actually have a role to play in vanilla - I just remember players barely experiencing shortages of any kind in most of our games.
Me too lately. All I can guess is my lower Infra builds this time, vs more factories, and the inablility to liberate Scandanavia, might've caused the rares shortage. I actually wasn't given that option this time. Just Norway or Denmark.
Good to see the USA AI actually preparing for war, your invasion looks to be a tough one!
Ya - esp now that USA won't sit back any more while you conquer Canada. My plan: To feign an infantry attack in Quebec, drawing American attention, then hit Florida with the big boys. It worked last time with Vanguard, but I had no shortages.
Defeating France, the UK and the USSR by October 1940 is pretty on top of schedule if you ask me :D
All to get me to this (rather insane) point. This invasion now could be to me as Barbarossa was to the historical Germany.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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Mee too lately. All I can guess is my lower Infra builds this time, vs more factories, and the inablility to liberate Scandanavia, might've caused the rares shortage. I actually wasn't given that option this time. Just Norway or Denmark.
I'd imagine you'd need Sweden too in order to create Scandinavia, but as Norway exists as a separate nation I doubt it's possible now.
Ya - esp now that USA won't sit back any more while you conquer Canada. My plan: To feign an infantry attack in Quebec, drawing American attention, then hit Florida with the big boys. It worked last time with Vanguard, but I had no shortages.
Sounds like a plan, good luck!
 
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stevep

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Very interesting - bought the book about a week ago due to all the good reviews about it. The economic aspect of the war does fascinate me, I just haven't got round to reading it yet!


Good to hear the AI responding relatively well after BP. Also good to hear that resources actually have a role to play in vanilla - I just remember players barely experiencing shortages of any kind in most of our games. That said, your IC is enormous by vanilla standards! Taking Malaysia and the Dutch East Indies should solve all your problems though.


Good to see the USA AI actually preparing for war, your invasion looks to be a tough one!

Defeating France, the UK and the USSR by October 1940 is pretty on top of schedule if you ask me :D

He goes into a lot of detail about how restricted the German economy was, especially given the massive arms build up that Hitler started virtually as soon as he came to power and how tight things were from the start. So many options where the Nazis could have been scuppered so easily without a fight in some cases. Totally rejects the old idea that the only really started mass mobilsation of industry after the failure of Barbarossa. The disbanding of some units after the fall of France was a temporary thing simply to get skilled manpower back into industry to produce the weapons needed for the invasion and then they were back in uniform.

He does have a couple of odd statements early on I noticed. A reference to some of the plans by conservatives prior to Hitler coming to power for an army of 21 divs with very limited numbers of armour and air and saying that wouldn't breach the Versailles treaty when it definitely would. Plus what is probably a typo where he talks about the problems Germany had converting the Soviet narrower gauge railway. However a hell of a lot of information and by spring 41 Germany was pretty much tapped out of its best manpower.

Think you will find it a fascinating read.

Steve
 
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MJF

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Sounds like a plan, good luck!
With your accurate identification of the Artillery Bombardment bug, & with the taking of the lower Quebec provinces (behind the St Lawrence Seaway defensive line) by Axis infantry & MT troops, I was able to continually pound them, attracting lots of Yankee attention. This left the SE wide open.

While there was lots of tough fighting, and the need to resist the tendency to get too spread out early on vs a superior USA force was critical, It appears that, with Naval Supremacy, the approach has worked:

USA_AfterVNE.png


Axis forces just destroyed/forced the surrender of 1/2 of the USA's ground forces, holding out in New England:


USA_NE_VNE2.png


They've lost 62% of their Army including most of their armor, and 62% of their Navy, including 11 of 13 CVs and all their BBs. Not to mention about 90% of their IC.
Bringing Japan into the family will hopefully deter the USSR a while longer (Until I finish off the USA and massively redeploy for a spring 1943 Finishing blow).

If North America is to have a chance, Oppenheimer better get with it!

All this strayed form the OP. Seems that the AC's don't boost organization all that much, vs the power loss. Having 1 armor unit in a stack with engineers looks promising.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


EDIT: 9 months. Not bad for 1.12:

Ax_USA.png
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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Very nicely done!

Fair??? This is WAR!
I'm not sure what you're talking about.... Hearts of Iron 2: Arsenal of Democracy is clearly an economic simulator of the 1930s and 40s world economy, war is more of an inconvenience then a crucial focus of the game. At least by vanilla standards ;) :p
 
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Very nicely done!


I'm not sure what you're talking about.... Hearts of Iron 2: Arsenal of Democracy is clearly an economic simulator of the 1930s and 40s world economy, war is more of an inconvenience then a crucial focus of the game. At least by vanilla standards ;) :p
...It can be inconvenient at times...
 

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Fair??? This is WAR!
Maybe, but just like with cheating you rob yourself of the challenge. Decrease the difficulty setting by one and abstain from any unhistorical wars before taking Moscow and you will get a better challenge.

Still feel free to attempt a Sealion in april 1941 before Barbarossa. It is strictly speaking unhistorical, but the danger was real since France fell in Mid 1940, thus it is fair play to attack in april 1941.

Fall Gelb however should not start before may 1940, the war vs. Yugoslavia not before march 1941 and Barbarossa not before 1941/06/22.
 
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MJF

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Maybe, but just like with cheating you rob yourself of the challenge. Decrease the difficulty setting by one and abstain from any unhistorical wars before taking Moscow and you will get a better challenge.

Still feel free to attempt a Sealion in april 1941 before Barbarossa. It is strictly speaking unhistorical, but the danger was real since France fell in Mid 1940, thus it is fair play to attack in april 1941.

Fall Gelb however should not start before may 1940, the war vs. Yugoslavia not before march 1941 and Barbarossa not before 1941/06/22.
OK. I've done that before, earlier than 1.12. IIRC, back when you could land and attack Canada before the USA would auto-DOW you for that, so when I got a quick BP knockout, I could still mostly get into Quebec and Nova Scotia before Pearl Harbor. However, I believe I hit the USSR in 1941 but before 6/22 - couldn't resist...:oops:

I've also done my above strategy on Hard. I think my "Hard is the new Normal" thread went through that one.

So what is wrong with a Summer/Fall 1940 Sealion, after Vichy France triggers? Wasn't that the original plan?
 
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So what is wrong with a Summer/Fall 1940 Sealion, after Vichy France triggers? Wasn't that the original plan?
Not sure this is the area for historical debate, but the idea of Germany standing a decent chance of successfully invading the UK bordered on nil - regardless of whether or not it won the air war, the so called "Battle of Britain".

But certainly a Germany like yours, possessing aircraft carriers, should be able to attempt it after the fall of France, at least after sinking or crippling much of the Royal Navy.
 
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MJF

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Not sure this is the area for historical debate, but the idea of Germany standing a decent chance of successfully invading the UK bordered on nil - regardless of whether or not it won the air war, the so called "Battle of Britain".

But certainly a Germany like yours, possessing aircraft carriers, should be able to attempt it after the fall of France, at least after sinking or crippling much of the Royal Navy.
Yeah - that escape from Dunkirk was huge. One reason I build that carrier fleet is to succeed in Sealion. It either wins Navy battles, forces the UK fleets back into ports (where the Luftwaffe can hit them), or chases them off to the North. This game gives land-based aircraft big advantages in port strikes against a docked Navy. Carrier base strikes -- not so much.

I always considered Sealion the Linchpin in my whole early-attacking strategy. That huge, stationary "Floating Enemy Base" has gotta go!

I've often wondered if Germany had managed to land - and get up to London - would that have forced Churchill out, and a negotiated peace? But I digress...
 

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Yeah - that escape from Dunkirk was huge. One reason I build that carrier fleet is to succeed in Sealion. It either wins Navy battles, forces the UK fleets back into ports (where the Luftwaffe can hit them), or chases them off to the North. This game gives land-based aircraft big advantages in port strikes against a docked Navy. Carrier base strikes -- not so much.

I always considered Sealion the Linchpin in my whole early-attacking strategy. That huge, stationary "Floating Enemy Base" has gotta go!

I've often wondered if Germany had managed to land - and get up to London - would that have forced Churchill out, and a negotiated peace? But I digress...

If your talking about real life as Mr B0narpte says its pretty much impossible. Even assuming that Germany could build a number of carriers and operate them efficiently, which is extremely unlikely given the lack of experience and the resource/industrial shortfalls Germany had then you would have to consider how Britain would have responded in real life. Assuming a more historical path then there's not a cat in hell's chance. Even if somehow the LW manages to win the air battles its virtually certainly a suicide mission for any invasion force, not to mention what's left of the KM trying to cover such an operation.
 
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