We all know what this great game lacks (or "Paradox, be human beings, add POPs")

[Chamboozer]

This game could benefit so much not from the addition of pops, but from the addition of social classes. Let's get rid of the un-immersive kind of random events that have no real meaning in relation to anything. Noble uprising? Let that be because there is actually a noble in my country who wants to revolt. Burghers demand old rights? Let there actually be burghers who have a desire to protect their rights, and not just the RNG chugging along throwing random results at us. It's these sort of things which deserve to be fleshed out and would add real meat to the game.

 

[ChildeR]

No population numbers, please. They would just invite endless arguments and complaints.

If POPs can be implemented without, then I'm not opposed at all. Internal mechanics are a frequent request that I wish was fulfilled.

 

[Zak Preston]

Recently I thought about this subject and went to conclusion: you can't make your state a great power in a peaceful way. No chance, because you need that base tax from other provinces. You can't raise BT of your own territories (except temple) and create a super-nation Greece (for example) with a decent army and fleet only because you are restricted to mediocre-BT provinces.
I wish I could spend ADM points to improve my provinces (build new cities and their improvements: schools, roads, churches, colledges, some manufactories) in a more reasonable way

For example in CK2 you can conquer all Mediterranean islands, build more temples, cities and castles, upgrade them, and you will be on par with the whole African Emirate in terms of troops, and you have a chance to add territories in a peaceful way.

 

[grommile]

Recently I thought about this subject and went to conclusion: you can't make your state a great power in a peaceful way.

Can you provide an example of a polity in the period which attained something akin to "great power" status without expanding its borders (whether at home or overseas)?

 

[Zak Preston]

Can you provide an example of a polity in the period which attained something akin to "great power" status without expanding its borders (whether at home or overseas)?

Sweden, especially after Poltava defeat?
Austria and their Habsburg dynasty marrying any single major European Dynasty?
France didn't colonize that much and most times stayed in roughly the same borders. They fought for influence mostly.

Ok, maybe not to great power, but to major power at least.

 

[greendevil]

Sweden, especially after Poltava defeat?
Austria and their Habsburg dynasty marrying any single major European Dynasty?
France didn't colonize that much and most times stayed in roughly the same borders. They fought for influence mostly.

Ok, maybe not to great power, but to major power at least.

France was a great power already simply by virtue of being the strongest and most populous country in Europe.
Austria by itself wouldn't have been very strong, but it was because of dynastical unions.
Sweden during his great power status did expand a lot. I'd say that after the Poltava defeat they weren't really a great power.

 

[Sugary]

Population would really add to immersion +1

+1 for famines
+1 for wars
+1 for disease

 

[Zak Preston]

France was a great power already simply by virtue of being the strongest and most populous country in Europe.
Austria by itself wouldn't have been very strong, but it was because of dynastical unions.
Sweden during his great power status did expand a lot. I'd say that after the Poltava defeat they weren't really a great power.

Ok, what I mean is that if you start an OPM or some kind of minor nation with 1-8 mediocre provinces you won't be able to become really strong: there is no way to rise your population >> taxes (BT), no way to improve defensiveness (like building a lot of fortresses in a region), you can't dramatically increase manpower and forcelimits (except buildings). So you can't become a truly mecenate ruler that leads a nation to golden era of stability, prosperity and cultural boom.

Wars, even the least bloody (and most local) are by no means a stability even to the largest empires.

 

[Emre Yigit]

@OP: I understand there are widespread speed issues with 1.8 and you want to add a further drain on your computer's resources?

 

[grommile]

Sweden, especially after Poltava defeat?

Does the phrase "Swedish Pomerania" mean anything to you?

Austria and their Habsburg dynasty marrying any single major European Dynasty?

Which certainly expanded the borders of the Habsburg dominions when it succeeded, and they did in any event engage in military campaigns to take land from the Ottoman Empire.

France didn't colonize that much and most times stayed in roughly the same borders.

"Didn't colonize that much"? I suspect Great Britain's participation in the Seven Years' War would have been significantly less enthusiastic if France didn't own a sizeable slice of Canada.

Also, France did engage in European expansionism in-period even before the Napoleonic wars; its acquisitions of Rosselló, Elsaß, Lothringen, the Sundgau, and the Freigrafschaft Burgund were by force of arms, not diplomacy, and going further back there were the attempted acquisitions of Naples, Milan, etc. during the Italian Wars.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

I support every proposal to add more depth and realism into this, for a "grand-strategy" game, alarmingly simple game.

 

[Zak Preston]

Does the phrase "Swedish Pomerania" mean anything to you?

After Poltava defeat Sweden stopped bein a great power, they became a powerful local power that none wanted to mess with.

Which certainly expanded the borders of the Habsburg dominions when it succeeded, and they did in any event engage in military campaigns to take land from the Ottoman Empire.

They would be Habsburgs if they didn't any suitable chance to expand their demesne =) But can they be compared to Napoleonic France, Russian empire or Ottomans, to say nothing of British and Spanish Empires?

"Didn't colonize that much"? I suspect Great Britain's participation in the Seven Years' War would have been significantly less enthusiastic if France didn't own a sizeable slice of Canada.

I guess that if EU4 had a completely peaceful way to become a great power it wouldn't be EU-game any more ))

Also, France did engage in European expansionism in-period even before the Napoleonic wars; its acquisitions of Rosselló, Elsaß, Lothringen, the Sundgau, and the Freigrafschaft Burgund were by force of arms, not diplomacy, and going further back there were the attempted acquisitions of Naples, Milan, etc. during the Italian Wars.

Still no comparison to Great Britain's expansion, right?

 

[AKronblad]

If you link the population in a province to mechanics like manpower, taxes, FL, trade income etc. and let it be affected by wars, pillaging, unrest, events, plague, economy-boom/decline due to XYZ, it would add a goddamn huge amount of flavour and immersion to our already great game.

+1. Totally agree.

And it doesn't have to be population expressed in '000'000, but could be a "simple " population parameter ranging from 1 to say 20, or higher.

 

[Squirrelloid]

Population in the game period wouldn't actually be *that* hard.

Every province has a carrying capacity (think of it as population potential), based on the best real data you can get before the introduction of more modern agricultural techniques(These numbers really were pretty much fixed until ~1700 in Europe, and frequently later elsewhere). Population grows towards this number (should be exponentially with a small exponent - you could even use historical estimates for r). Recruiting troops in a province decreases this number, as does famines/plagues/poor harvests/etc..., and as does fighting battles, looting, or having a hostile army sitting in it.

In 1444, the world population in the (non-sub-saharan) old world is depressed because of the black plague - provinces should start between 50% and 75% of carrying capacity. Whether you want to determine each province randomly, or try to get an historical estimate, is up to the designers.

Of course, any pop system would tax computer hardware more than the game already does now...

 

[Freudia]

Biggest thing people are overlooking is the processing power necessary to run these kinds of computations for every owned province in the game. The game already is demanding in terms of performance, from what I've seen on the forums, and adding something like populations would only bring the game to a crawl for a lot of people.

 

[Pornek]

Biggest thing people are overlooking is the processing power necessary to run these kinds of computations for every owned province in the game. The game already is demanding in terms of performance, from what I've seen on the forums, and adding something like populations would only bring the game to a crawl for a lot of people.

I just wanted to post that.

 

[AKronblad]

Biggest thing people are overlooking is the processing power necessary to run these kinds of computations for every owned province in the game. The game already is demanding in terms of performance, from what I've seen on the forums, and adding something like populations would only bring the game to a crawl for a lot of people.

Well, leave to Paradox to elaborate on that.

With your reasoning, it is the Autonomy parameter for every province that is to blame for the 1.8 performance issues.

 

[Freudia]

Well, leave to Paradox to elaborate on that.

With your reasoning, it is the Autonomy parameter for every province that is to blame for the 1.8 performance issues.

I'd wager it's a mix of the autonomy combined with the sheer number of new tags and provinces added. The game is having to do a lot more calculating than it had to in 1.7.3. I can only venture a guess though, as I don't work on the game.

 

[ChildeR]

Biggest thing people are overlooking is the processing power necessary to run these kinds of computations for every owned province in the game. The game already is demanding in terms of performance, from what I've seen on the forums, and adding something like populations would only bring the game to a crawl for a lot of people.

Meh, if performance is a problem I'd rather they remove some provinces. Smaller and deeper over huge and shallow, any day. People whose pet nations would be affected probably disagree, unfortunately.

 

[Khar221]

Either Wiz or Johan, can't remember who, specifically stated populations will never be added.