We all know what this great game lacks (or "Paradox, be human beings, add POPs")

[uleslaw]

From the gameplay perspective, this game is brilliant. Monarch Points are great for balance in scientific development between rich and poor countries, Agressive Expansion is far better than infamous Infamy system known from previous games, colonization is not "the-first-takes-everything-race" anymore, I even like the new autonomy system from 1.8. Surely, some mechanics could further adjusted, some other could be still added, but as a whole, the game is great.

The only issue I have with it is that in current shape (call it single province-based perspective) it significantly lacks immersion. I do not know how many people live in my empire, I do not know if they are peasents or nobles, I cannot interact with powerful aristocratic families which surely are present in my country. Instead, I know how many Base Tax each of my provinces have, how many Man Power they supply etc. For me, it's too abstracted. I love Victoria II with its POPs system and I know that even with much simplified implementation of POPs EU IV would be a perfect game. But I am sure it would be extremaly hard to jump from abstracted, single-province based perspective to even simplified POP system. But still, I believe it would be right path in further development of this great game. And it would open a lot of new possibilities - first of all, expanding peace-time gamplay.

I know. I am sorry for creating 12515135135 thread on POPs. I just think that we have to remind about that from time to time.

 

[Castrolol]

It will never happen. Getting anywhere near accurate population figures is already hard enough in the victorian era, trying to find information like that in 1444 all the way to 1821 is an impossible task.

 

[Zusk]

Eu3 did it

 

[grommile]

I know. I am sorry for creating 12515135135 thread on POPs. I just think that we have to remind about that from time to time.

You can't have a working real-numbers demographic mechanic without a working production-consumption economy (if you try, you will get lolfail results). To get anything resembling sensible outcomes in EU4, you'd need a better production-consumption economy than Vic2 has, because Vic2's has some assumptions which are tolerable in 1935 and somewhat off-beam in 1836 and would be utterly hilarious in 1444.

If the devs write a better production-consumption economy than Vic2's, it will be for Vic3, not EU4.

(The data-gathering issues mentioned by Castrolol are a separate, and severe, hurdle for the "POPs in EU4" proposal.)

Eu3 did it

No it didn't.

EU3 provided a hilariously implausible "this province's capital city has this many citizens" mechanic, whose results varied from "bad" to "so bad it's funny". Europe routinely ended up with multiple pop-capped (i.e. one million population) provinces by 1650; I will note here that after the sack of Rome in 476, the first European urban area to reach a population of one million was London, some time in the early 19th century. Paris didn't reach a million until the 1840s.

 

[greendevil]

It would be great not only to represent minorities (both ethnical and religious), social classes and interaction between them, but also to represent the sheer demographic power of certain areas (and the lack of others).

Base Taxe has always been unfit for that. Colonize a region in North America and as soon as it becomes an actual city it will likely be as rich and wealthy as a province in your home country. Stupid.

 

[RMcD94]

+1

It will never happen. Getting anywhere near accurate population figures is already hard enough in the victorian era, trying to find information like that in 1444 all the way to 1821 is an impossible task.

Accuracy is far less important than reasonable gameplay.

Population was far more static, doubling over the course of 400 years, compare to Vic 2 doubling in 100 years.

Tax can be based on population.

Trade power can be based on population.

Manpower can be based on population.

Recruiting armies can be based on population (what's that you can recruit your entire manpower on a single island, and people say that EU3 was hilariously bad)

 

[Krajzen]

+1

I know it is hard to calculate population for pre industrial times but it could be simply named Estimated Population (ya know, highly estimated... really highly ) but it would be brilliant for immersion and my beloved statistical data


If not, well I still agree with need of developing peacetime gameplay and internal state managment.

 

[ranbir]

Yeah, don't use the "implausible numbers" to argue against 3.

Especially when EU4 has way more -gamey- implausible experiences in dealing with things. My nation is suffering instability? Just press it three times and DING! +3 stability! When this is supposed to represents internal peace and so forth....please don't try to bring in "unrealistic, inaccurate and implausible".

Population value, no matter how 'estimated' it is would be great. Having population; we can add in mechanics to create reasonable growth and decline patterns. So while the numbers can't be said to be 100% super realistic and historical omg, we can instead say, these population behaviours are pretty plausible.

And then having to use that as an indicator of tax, manpower, dealing with rebellious elements? That's pretty awesome and brining back immersion of "wow I'm really ruling a nation" and now "wow I'm playing a boardgame which is become routine".


And really...talking about inaccurate....you seen those inaccurate rebellion stacks? You want to complain about population numbers of a province but totally okay with ridiculous numbers of rebellion armies? Please... let's keep some perspective on what the benefits and problems having population statistics could bring to a game. Don't bring in "not historical la la la"

 

[Toshiro mifune]

I think that an effective (in terms of immersion) POP system could be achieved without having to venture into the total population of each province. From what limited information I have the population during the medieval area was static in any case. The population in each province is therefore basically the resource, especially with regards to agriculture, value of the province - therefore the BT system in as excellent way to reflect population.

However, that does not address the POP system - which I very much agree with OP that is needed. There are several good ways in which paradox can implement this - though as an incurable optimist by nature, I think this will be a reality in some future expansion if not in EU5.

 

[Krajzen]

Also seeing as Paradox decided to set autonomy and terrain for every single one of 3000 provinces, it's not like it would be impossible to calculate estimated population based on base tax/base manpower for each province

 

[grommile]

Population was far more static, doubling over the course of 400 years, compare to Vic 2 doubling in 100 years.

The total population of the Earth might have been static (though given the fatality rate from imported microbes in the Americas in the 16th century, I doubt it), but the population of major urban areas was definitely not static.

In 1550, the population of London was about 120k. In 1600, it was about 200k. In 1700, it was in excess of 550k.

 

[D-A-C]

I think that that level of detail is too much.

I would much rather they just extended the surface royal families, marriages, and other forms of government in interesting ways rather than the populations themselves.

 

[Bragi]

+1

I know it is hard to calculate population for pre industrial times but it could be simply named Estimated Population (ya know, highly estimated... really highly ) but it would be brilliant for immersion and my beloved statistical data


If not, well I still agree with need of developing peacetime gameplay and internal state managment.

Yeah, don't use the "implausible numbers" to argue against 3.

Especially when EU4 has way more -gamey- implausible experiences in dealing with things. My nation is suffering instability? Just press it three times and DING! +3 stability! When this is supposed to represents internal peace and so forth....please don't try to bring in "unrealistic, inaccurate and implausible".

Population value, no matter how 'estimated' it is would be great. Having population; we can add in mechanics to create reasonable growth and decline patterns. So while the numbers can't be said to be 100% super realistic and historical omg, we can instead say, these population behaviours are pretty plausible.

And then having to use that as an indicator of tax, manpower, dealing with rebellious elements? That's pretty awesome and brining back immersion of "wow I'm really ruling a nation" and now "wow I'm playing a boardgame which is become routine".


And really...talking about inaccurate....you seen those inaccurate rebellion stacks? You want to complain about population numbers of a province but totally okay with ridiculous numbers of rebellion armies? Please... let's keep some perspective on what the benefits and problems having population statistics could bring to a game. Don't bring in "not historical la la la"

I agree to 100%.

 

[No idea]

Eu3 did it

What? I hope you dont referr to that obviously flawed and very limited population figure we got in eu III.

Regarding the op request i think it is not really worth so much work for so little gain. What do you want it for? After all pops make sense in a XIX century game, but not in this one, imho.

 

[No idea]

I think that that level of detail is too much.

I would much rather they just extended the surface royal families, marriages, and other forms of government in interesting ways rather than the populations themselves.

Agreed, altough this is CK core, and pds never interferes with its other games core.

 

[Krajzen]

Regarding the op request i think it is not really worth so much work for so little gain. What do you want it for? After all pops make sense in a XIX century game, but not in this one, imho.

I think it could be done very simply via mathematic formula which calculates estimated population basing on base tax/base manpower. You wouldn't have to set population for every single of 3000 provinces - I also don't think Paradox manually set Terrain for each province on the map



Or, for example, every state would be supposed to do the National Census [this is how 'count all citizens' is called in English, right?] every 15 years and in Ledger we could see Estimated Population by country basing on the last Census.

This would work like an event which cannot appear during wars/rebellions and if population is higher than at previous census then nation receives Prestige and Power Projection. It would be insanely cool and more realistic than both 'no population' and 'absurdly detailed demographic in medieval era'.

For each province you see a little number POPULATON (BASING ON THE LAST CENSUS) and red/white/green indicators SHARPLY FALLS, FALLS, STAGNATES, RISES, RISES QUICKLY.

When Epidemy strikes you see the event, you lose drastically much manpower and income but you can't see how many people you have lost exactly until you make a new Census.





Population would fluctuate basing on random events (cataclysms, epidemies, migrations), rebellions, looting/sieging/scorching during wars etc.

 

[No idea]

I think it could be done very simply via mathematic formula which calculates estimated population basing on base tax/base manpower. You wouldn't have to set population for every single of 3000 provinces - I also don't think Paradox manually set Terrain for each province on the map



Or, for example, every state would be supposed to do the National Census [this is how 'count all citizens' is called in English, right?] every 15 years and in Ledger we could see Estimated Population by country basing on the last Census.

This would work like an event which cannot appear during wars/rebellions and if population is higher than at previous census then nation receives Prestige and Power Projection. It would be insanely cool and more realistic than both 'no population' and 'absurdly detailed demographic in medieval era'.

For each province you see a little number POPULATON (BASING ON THE LAST CENSUS) and red/white/green indicators SHARPLY FALLS, FALLS, STAGNATES, RISES, RISES QUICKLY.

When Epidemy strikes you see the event, you lose drastically much manpower and income but you can't see how many people you have lost exactly until you make a new Census.

But what is the whole point of it? Apart from, "oh, my population is rising, cool¡"

 

[Krajzen]

But what is the whole point of it? Apart from, "oh, my population is rising, cool¡"

Being a base for a deeper managment of country and developing peacetime mechanics.

Also, never underestimate coolness

 

[Lakedaimon]

There would be no significant gain from adding this. In the victorian era this is very important as it was the industrial revolution and the era of social strife. In EU4 the focus should be on different things, and so far the focus has been on the right things for this era: warfare, diplomacy, colonization, trade.

 

[Bragi]

But what is the whole point of it? Apart from, "oh, my population is rising, cool¡"

If you link the population in a province to mechanics like manpower, taxes, FL, trade income etc. and let it be affected by wars, pillaging, unrest, events, plague, economy-boom/decline due to XYZ, it would add a goddamn huge amount of flavour and immersion to our already great game.