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unmerged(6777)

Field Marshal
Dec 10, 2001
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Well, 'twas fun while it lasted.

As you probably know, I don't subscribe to Peter's approach to WC, though it does have the demonstrable capacity of doing so. In part, I suppose, a question of style; but IMO Peter's strategy is not suitable for the very tricky German minors and is far more likely to end in annihilation than not. I wouldn't hesitate to employ it in the middle east or far east, but when playing Germans or any other one-province Europeans I find my own approach to be far more likely to succeed - though certainly not a guarantee.

The problems are thus:

1. Far greater number of adjacent countries with high quality/good morale troops.

2. Far more adjoining small nations looking to expand themselves and forming interlocking alliances that can screw you easily.

3. Far more dangerour "big" countries lurking around, looking for an excuse to snuff your lights out.

4. Far stronger local economies.

5. Far more advantageous events for the local majors that can/will disrupt your carefully laid plans.

6. Far fewer scripted events that are likely to help you.

7. Religion is far harder to balance in the first century and a half.

8. Terrain in the region is far harder to handly with force composition.

Thus, when playing German minors, I tend to focus very heavily on my diplomatic strength, milityary quality, and lean-and-mean economy. It is, as often as not, a question of carefully surviving and slowly building up a modest empire until the 1550s and the last of the major religious changes. At that point you take the plunge, go protestant, overcome the upset at that, then go on the diplomatic warpath for a while, and then and only then do I start really pushing for dominance...first regional, and then broaden out from there.

The bonus to this strategy (or perhaps the focus of it) is to make sure that France and/or Austria are considerably worse on the bad-boy scale at the point when you begin to take the plunge into the depths of being hated throughout the world. That diverts attention away from you while you gobble up all of those nations you've spent the last 150 years sucking up to. If you're very lucky, and play almost 250 years of non-stop war, you can conquer the world.

The trick, therefore (and again, this is only IMO) is to exercise extreme patience for those first 150 years. My approach (beyond what I've said above) is...

1419: you've got 5-10 years to annex someone so you're a two-province minor and can't be militarily annexed. Now sit, build, make friends.

1450's-1460's: try to get a couple vassals and maybe take one more province in a defensive war. Then sit.

1480's-1500: Add another vassal or two and sneak another province under your wind in a defensive war. Then sit.

1520-1550: Add another vassal or two and another few provinces by diplo-annexation if possible, or defensive conquest.

At this point you should have 5-7 provinces (maybe as many as 10 if you're very lucky and very careful) and a bunch of vassals - hopefully in a strong alliance but just as likely as not you'll have only one or two vassals and no alliance depending on the way the winds of religion blow... Your BB will be honourable or respectable while the inheritance events will have made France and Austria large, but very bad.

Now change religion, stave off the upset, and set about re-vassalising your smaller neighbours.

1600: Now you challenge the smaller of France or Austria and take as much of their territory as you can. This is the first time I would even think about taking loans.

1610: Now repeat with whichever was larger.

1620: Gobble up anything that's small.

1630: Fight another round against whichever of the remaining uropean nations is the largest that you can handle. Take territory.

1640: Ditto

During those last 20-30 years, diplo-annex the vassals from the late 1500's. Note that by now you should be at infrastructure 9 or 10 and trade 9 or 10. Military tech should be in the high 20's for land and high teens or so for naval.

1650-1700: Take the rest of Europe and most of Poland/Lithuania. You should also have a good foothold in the Americas by now.

1700-1750: Asia Minor and Russia plus anything you can get your hands on in the Americas.

1750-1800: India, the Far East, and the first wars with China...hopefully also fighting to control Northern Africa and as much of the rest of it as you can get. Also take control of the rest of the Americas

1800-1820: Mop up whatever's left and pray that you can do it in time.

I've used (roughly) that strategy with sporadic success (sometimes you simply crash and burn...face it, it's hard to do) about half a dozen times...Gelre, Saxony (admittedly starts with 2 provinces), Hessen, Sienna (admittedly not German), and...er...the Palatinat. ;)

To each his own, though, so get ye hence to your Glutonic Knights and conquer far Cathay would ya! :)
 

Wyvern

In the lands of Calradia
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Whilst I don't think you need to take quite so cautious an approach as MrT describes, I agree with him that the minimum land tech approach isn't a good idea in Germany. You need to be on a level playing field land tech wise when you start your BB wars otherwise you'll get trounced.

I do believe though that by judicious switching of alliances throughout the first 100 years you can easily build up a large empire through defencive wars. Just look in the ledger for which alliance is fighting defensively against a country near you, give them a few bribes and ask to join their alliance. Brings you straight into a defensive war and minimum BB for your gains.

With Hannover I had around 30 provinces after 100 years and then spent what much have been 20 solid years at 100% land tech investment before starting my mad push to glory. When I kicked off the BB wars I was at equal tech with the best of my neighbours, roughly tech 11 if I remember correctly and I barely made it through that first round. Fighting Bavaria in the forest and mountain provinces was just a nightmare. If I'd ignored land tech I wouldn't have had a chance. Once I survived that first round though and culled a few of the minors around me it was fairly plain sailing from then on. Trade tech I built up to 4 I think before that point and switched to infra tech once the wars started until I got governors. Well actually I think the first 20 or so years of BB wars I was probably giving 100% to treasury, but after that it was infra tech for a long time. Also always remember to use war taxes, they're a god send and an area I neglected for far too long in my campaign. Now its just automatic. Someone declares war, hit war taxes.:D

Having said all that, I started my campaign under the 1.04 patch so attacking pagans for zero BB was not an option. If I was doing it again I'd wait and take out the pagan north american tribes first which is pretty easy once you hit anywhere near land tech 11, and once they're gone you should be rich enough to dominate without too much trouble.

Each to his own though.
 

unmerged(4271)

General
Jun 6, 2001
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Post Mortem

Well, to continue the post mortem, I was playing with 1.04, and in the end I had quite the North American empire, but had irreparable BB ratings.

In terms of land tech, IIRC I got as high as 11, but France had 19. I could beat up on those silly Poles, but couldn't compete on my western flank. And Austria was the beneficiary of inheriting a LARGE Hungary.

Nasty alliances did play a part in my demise. France, Poland, Novograd, England, and some random minor kept on my case, and even after I'd make peace with the leader, some other ally would DOW before the truce expired.

What was the most frustrating however, other than being unable to convert without suffering a major BB hit, was all the damned "Unhapiness among the Peasantry" events I recieved. At a couple of points I got hit with (if I was not drunk with rage and frustration and remembering it incorrectly) a "double" event, with TWO revolts in Mecklenburg and a +6% Revolt Risk. Is that possible or am I just imagining? Regardless, it seemed to happen a lot.

Of course, now that I've given up on it I thought of a wonderful theme for a Mecklenburg AAR, but maybe I'll save it for later, and put Mr. T's plan to the test.

But now I can return to more more successful German minor....well, succesful in terms of story development if not world conquest.

Final count before it all came apart:

MECKLENBURG

TALAHASSEE
SAVANNAH
ALABAMA
TENNESSEE
ALLEGHANY
CAROLINA
SANTEE
ROANOKE
CATAWBA
SHENADOAH
POWHATAN
OSWEGO
CHESAPEAKE
DELAWARE
ADIRONDACK
PENOBSCOT (TP)
BANGOR (TP)
MICMAC (TP)
ACADIE (TP)
NOVA SCOTIA
ERIKSFJORD
VESTBYGDEN
Various Candadian TPs (from France)
Various Caribbean TPs (from France)
Various South American TPs (From Portugal)
A few African TPs (from France and Portugal)
A few East Indies TPs (from Portugal)
FLANDERN
BRABANT
KOLN
ZEELAND
HOLLAND
KLEEVES
OLDENBURG
BREMEN
HOLSTEIN
JUTLAND
BERGENHAUS (whoops, nevermind, they became Norway)
SKANE
HANNOVER
HESSEN
PFALZ
MAINZ
WURZBURG
ANHALT
SACHSEN
MAGDEBURG
BRANDENBURG
KUSTRIN
SILISEA
ERZ
BOHEMIA
SUDETEN
MORAVIA

But by the end war exhaustion, rebels, and random events (mostly Unhappy F-ing Peasants) had lands declaring independence faster than I could hold on to them. Soon it was a decision between letting them all go or fighting to reincorporate them...and I couldn't just let them go. ;)

Thanks for all the comments, I'll get the hang of this thing yet.

Or maybe I need to buy one of the Danish releases of the game - I hear they're much easier! :D
 

Peter Ebbesen

the Conqueror
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Re: Post Mortem

Originally posted by heagarty

In terms of land tech, IIRC I got as high as 11, but France had 19. I could beat up on those silly Poles, but couldn't compete on my western flank. And Austria was the beneficiary of inheriting a LARGE Hungary.

Nasty alliances did play a part in my demise. France, Poland, Novograd, England, and some random minor kept on my case, and even after I'd make peace with the leader, some other ally would DOW before the truce expired.
Too bad. 11 should have been enough to at the least stall the French while you expanded eastwards - and taking control of those Aztec Gold mines would have done wonders for your economy. Did Spain (for once) do it right?

But that alliance does sound nasty.


What was the most frustrating however, other than being unable to convert without suffering a major BB hit, was all the damned "Unhapiness among the Peasantry" events I recieved. At a couple of points I got hit with (if I was not drunk with rage and frustration and remembering it incorrectly) a "double" event, with TWO revolts in Mecklenburg and a +6% Revolt Risk. Is that possible or am I just imagining? Regardless, it seemed to happen a lot.
You got the high serfdom Peasantry unhappiness with two random revolts (that just happened to choose Mecklenburg twice) and +5 RR. In 1.05 the Peasants lowers stab by respectively 2 and 3 rather than increase RR. (To minimise the added revolt risk feature). This makes them less of a danger in the early and late game, but very, very dangerous in midgame where stabcosts are high.


Of course, now that I've given up on it I thought of a wonderful theme for a Mecklenburg AAR, but maybe I'll save it for later, and put Mr. T's plan to the test.

But now I can return to more more successful German minor....well, succesful in terms of story development if not world conquest.
Hungry Knights :D


Or maybe I need to buy one of the Danish releases of the game - I hear they're much easier! :D

I wouldn't know. Mine is a NA Strategy First parallel imported into Denmark :D

And MrT (and others). Why do you assume I would use the minimum landtech approach as a German minor? Since most German provinces are very rich, and since I would be in the best tech group, I would level up landtech to either 11 or 14 before doing serious harm, picking off choicy German targets for their manpower and riches until then and conquer the Aztecs for their gold - unless I had story-driven imperatives for not doing so. All this, of course, was in the lecture notes, if not in the actual lectures :D