WC/One Faith strategy as Timurids on 1.34

[Vahnstad]

I'm coincidentally playing a game as Mughals as well. Worth to note: i've never done a WC before.

Vassals: Syria, Iraq, Oman, Nogai, Nepal, Najd & Shirvan. I will probably pop up Kazakh soon as well, if i go to war with Uzbek for other Nogai claims, than i'll take a Kazakh core province and release it.

Already been able to close the Ottomans from going deeper into Egypt. Contrary to what was suggested i've chosen not to ally Ottomans but I was friendly regardless until I started to have too many border provinces with them. Right now I have Ming and Ottomans rivalled.

Right now I don't have an ally. I also don't think i have a diplo slot that allows for it, and i'm using strong duchies estate privilege already (with diplo ideas). Of course, i can go over the limit if i have to, but I think i'm fine without allies so far. The main reason would be to be friendly with a nation in a culture group/religion group you have to attack repeatedly to prevent AE building up with that nation. So perhaps Bengal could be a good ally, if i have to attack Malwa and Jaunpur repeatedly.

I also conquered Tibet mainly to have easy access to China early on, in case they would collapse, which is not the case as of now. It also opens up a path into Indochina (although I need to conquer that nation that is between Bengal and Ming currently). And Tibet is easy to conquer (few provinces and nations, diff. culture group and religion from nations i usually attack). It also has a gold province.

 

[FishieFan]

I'm coincidentally playing a game as Mughals as well. Worth to note: i've never done a WC before.

Vassals: Syria, Iraq, Oman, Nogai, Nepal, Najd & Shirvan. I will probably pop up Kazakh soon as well, if i go to war with Uzbek for other Nogai claims, than i'll take a Kazakh core province and release it.

Already been able to close the Ottomans from going deeper into Egypt. Contrary to what was suggested i've chosen not to ally Ottomans but I was friendly regardless until I started to have too many border provinces with them. Right now I have Ming and Ottomans rivalled.

Right now I don't have an ally. I also don't think i have a diplo slot that allows for it, and i'm using strong duchies estate privilege already (with diplo ideas). Of course, i can go over the limit if i have to, but I think i'm fine without allies so far. The main reason would be to be friendly with a nation in a culture group/religion group you have to attack repeatedly to prevent AE building up with that nation. So perhaps Bengal could be a good ally, if i have to attack Malwa and Jaunpur repeatedly.

I also conquered Tibet mainly to have easy access to China early on, in case they would collapse, which is not the case as of now. It also opens up a path into Indochina (although I need to conquer that nation that is between Bengal and Ming currently). And Tibet is easy to conquer (few provinces and nations, diff. culture group and religion from nations i usually attack). It also has a gold province.

Tibets gold is arctic mountains, itll take ages to pay back. The mewar gold mine is way better. When did you push into qq for ottos to have Libya and northern syria?

 

[Vahnstad]

Tibets gold is arctic mountains, itll take ages to pay back. The mewar gold mine is way better. When did you push into qq for ottos to have Libya and northern syria?

Based on some earlier screenshots. My first war on the western front outside Ajam and perhaps some minors near Caucasia, was between 1470 and 1484. QQ did however quite well early on and my strategy was to wait before Mamluks or Ottomans would declare on them, and declare after they peace out (weakened), which I did. And the Mamluks did basically ensure QQ and Ottomans had no border anymore.

I think I had 2 wars with QQ. And 2 wars with the Mamluks. In the 1st war, i would only take 1 Iraq province (and a lot of other non-Iraq core provinces), the second war would be a reconquest one (but I also took a lot of provinces in that one).

With Mamluks i first (again after they had a war with Ottomans) take 1 province of Syria cores and later on start a reconquest war, again taking a lot in these 2 wars, but I was able to manage my AE just fine (and the reconquest cores obviously only give 25% AE for those provinces).

I currently have the Mewar gold mine as well, but i haven't developed both. I needed the diplo points more than the money (which wasn't an issue).

 

[harezmi]

This is great! Please continue to share your progress.
I also have a strong Ming in my game and they just took Uzbek as tributary.
VJ and Bahmanis are also going strong and they did not leave any of the minors for me to grab. I could have taken them but I really don't waste my free perma claims via missions. In the sake of efficiency, I think I am making things harder long term.
Otto has -200 reasons for the lands that they have claim on. We're still allies but no so long. I used them against Mamluks twice already and I was able to wage other wars at the same time with their help.
Rebels are also an issue because I don't have extra troops just to park in a province to wait for the rebels to pop up. They cause devastation and my valuable prosperity bonuses go away. Humanist is very appealing.
There are also two provinces in Multan area those need to be less than 30% autonomy for the mission but they are currently at 42% and I already reduced the autonomy. I have the state edict enabled but it is not much. I'll build Courthouses there as soon as available. I remember this being an issue when playing THoT. Not sure if I'm missing something here.

Diplo points are so valuable and I can't have them enough:
1) With constants war, WE is not going down, and I need diplo points not peace time to reduce it. I think I used it only once so far but should have used it more.
2) Trying to add more claims with spy network and only use claims to get land but I also don't want to miss an opportunity to grab good lands. Lots of points spent for unjustified demands.
3) I chose Diplomatic Ideas and that's another burden.
4) I was above diplo relations limit time-to-time and that also hurts.
5) I need to start annexing soon and that's when the actual problems will begin. I can't take influence ideas any time soon. I got Admin/Diplo and next one should be a MIL idea, so I can max out active policies and take advantage of Mughals free mil policy national idea at some point.
6) I will be behind in diplo tech and I don't like it when it reduces innovation and increase corruption. I have this problem pretty much every game.
7) Colonialism is also not far away and I don't have any excess points to develop.

 

[FishieFan]

This is great! Please continue to share your progress.
I also have a strong Ming in my game and they just took Uzbek as tributary.
VJ and Bahmanis are also going strong and they did not leave any of the minors for me to grab. I could have taken them but I really don't waste my free perma claims via missions. In the sake of efficiency, I think I am making things harder long term.
Otto has -200 reasons for the lands that they have claim on. We're still allies but no so long. I used them against Mamluks twice already and I was able to wage other wars at the same time with their help.
Rebels are also an issue because I don't have extra troops just to park in a province to wait for the rebels to pop up. They cause devastation and my valuable prosperity bonuses go away. Humanist is very appealing.

provoke rebels when you have an army in a province, leave an army stack per macro region to deal with rebels more easily

There are also two provinces in Multan area those need to be less than 30% autonomy for the mission but they are currently at 42% and I already reduced the autonomy. I have the state edict enabled but it is not much. I'll build Courthouses there as soon as available. I remember this being an issue when playing THoT. Not sure if I'm missing something here.

Diplo points are so valuable and I can't have them enough:
1) With constants war, WE is not going down, and I need diplo points not peace time to reduce it. I think I used it only once so far but should have used it more.

in eu4 you always want your wars to end as quickly as possible, propose your ideal peace deal day 1 and see what reasons are for them accepting or rejecting as time goes on

2) Trying to add more claims with spy network and only use claims to get land but I also don't want to miss an opportunity to grab good lands. Lots of points spent for unjustified demands.

what do you mean by good lands, with the mughal mission tree and core reconquest you should have little unjustified demands

3) I chose Diplomatic Ideas and that's another burden.
4) I was above diplo relations limit time-to-time and that also hurts.
5) I need to start annexing soon and that's when the actual problems will begin. I can't take influence ideas any time soon. I got Admin/Diplo and next one should be a MIL idea, so I can max out active policies and take advantage of Mughals free mil policy national idea at some point.
6) I will be behind in diplo tech and I don't like it when it reduces innovation and increase corruption. I have this problem pretty much every game.
7) Colonialism is also not far away and I don't have any excess points to develop.

using your claims you should be able to save up plenty of points

 

[harezmi]

what do you mean by good lands, with the mughal mission tree and core reconquest you should have little unjustified demands

What I mean by that is the land which I don't have a claim at the time and I'd rather pay the extra diplo to grab it. My definition of good land is may be that province would neighbor me to a new country or may be a trade center/gold/great project province.

I started to pay more attention to the rebels and used the provoking a few times but I am in constant wars and it is hard to find time.

 

[harezmi]

DECEMBER 1504:
I finally assimilated Hindustani Culture and got the extra 10% Core Creation Cost Reduction bonus.

I am still allied with Otto even though they have -200 reasons because of the claims they have on me. Otto is like a true boss and wreaking havoc in Europe. I have an option to rival them but fighting them now is the last thing I want. I noticed something weird in their war with Herzegovina/Cilli. They full annexed Cilli (6-7 provinces) first even though they had no claims. A few days later they only got the one of two provinces of Herzegovina even though they had claims on both. It might be because AE and coalition but still, I found it interesting.

I have Kazakh, Nogai, Iraq (annexing), Syria, Dawasir (will annex after) and Georgia (march). I want to DoW Mamluks for Syrian cores but Mamluks have 100k+ rebels on the east part of the country and I don't want to deal with them. Ottomans can also declare any time and may be I declare first and have Ottomans deal with them. All rebels are unfortunately Mamluk peasants.

Ming is my only rival and all my neighbors are their tributaries. I am planning to declare on Uzbeks and pull Ming in but I was very busy with India and now have to take on Mamluks before Ottomans do.

I also have some claims in Arabia and Africa which I am planning to deal with now.

Admin and Diplo ideas are completed. Behind each tech by one but I'm waiting for one last province to get Colonialism.
Money flow is good, I will TC/state more and get to the GC limit.

52% Crownland, Level 2 advisors (missionary, trade, discipline), improved most of the trade centers, built only one farm estate manufactory, no loans, upgraded Kaaba in Mecca for the war cost reduction as well as Jerusalem for the missionary strength.

All non-Hindu land is converted including the vassals except Georgia which is not Muslim. Not sure if I should enforce religion on them. -100 LD and relations will take forever. I am planning to keep them around until I deal with the Ottomans, though. I released Georgia and I am not sure if there was a possibility to release them as a Sunni nation. If I had converted their lands before I released them, would they be Sunni?

Lahore trade region is fully converted with propagate religion and now doing the same in Doab.

I am also allied with VJ and that's why I am one above the relations limit. It helped when I fought with Bengal and Bahmanis but I think I will dissolve the alliance after the next war.

I completed Admin/Diplo and planning to take Offensive or Quantity next. I want a military idea just to have more policies available. I will get Religious after and I think until then I will not be short of claims.

My general strategy going forward is to take Syrian cores, expand in Africa (Kilwa), eat even more of India (top priority), deal with Ming, expand into IndoChina and China. I want to go to North Africa for Malta and Granada but that'd require a lot of effort. I'll try to get closer to Malta after my Mamluk war but can't get to Tunis because they're allied with Ottos.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas.

 

[The Macedonian]

Your biggest threats are (in order): (1) Ottomans; (2) Russia; (3) Commonwealth; and, (4) Austria.

Austria only becomes a threat if they get the BI, as well as Hungary and Bohemia. This trifecta is pretty rare. Commonwealth has excellent quality but they often rival Austria mid-game. Russia is fine, provided that you knife up the Urals and block them from free Siberian development.

That really leaves the Ottomans. IMHO you can do two things. The easiest thing to do is conquer west to the line of the Zagros mountains. This allows you to build three sturdy mountain forts where hundreds of thousands of Ottoman virtual soldiers will die in the mid game. The harder thing to do is immediately push west as fast as possible to crush the Ottomans before they get their power up at Tech 5.

If you want to do One Faith, you will need religious ideas. Staying Suni is not a bad option. It's quite a lot of money and you can get most of the subcontinent with lower AE than normal. I don't like Suni because I feel the lack of quality in the late game. I often switch to Sihk for that reason; however, you really aren't going to one faith as Sikh, since the more buffs you gather, the lower your conversion strength becomes. You will have space marines in the late game.

 

[harezmi]

Is it normal that I was hit by the "failed administration" event for the third time? I checked the wiki and it says there is a 5 year pulse for this event. Just because I have administration ideas, will I keep getting this event? I chose to lose the government reforms twice but now I'll take the stab hit. I'm stuck at the 5th reform for a long time. I did not pick any reforms while playing Timurs and got the first two reform for free when I formed Mughals. And immediately got the 3rd and 4th reforms at that time. I have no longer the advantage, thanks to this event. It reminds me the old annual "comet sighted" event

 

[humb]

Its not relevant for you @harezmi , but I would suggest everyone reading and not doing One Faith to switch to Hindu. It gives addtional 20%CCR, -5%AE and -15% minimum autonomy in territories. It makes World Conquest much faster. There is even a Monument for 50% additional heir chance, so you can roll more heirs in the same time, resulting in better heirs. Also, you can use Deus Vult against more nations compared to being sunni. Switch to Hindu when you have the cash to upgrade the CCR-Monument to tier 2 instantly.

 

[necro84]

@harezmi you lose Mecca and it's 10% warscore vs other religion. And difference in CCR is 15% because you lose indian sultanate.
I did both runs in the past and it end result was very similar.

 

[Gaijin de Moscu]

I agree with those recommending to deal with the Ottomans as a priority, instead of allying them.

You could either guarantee or straight-out no-CB attack and vassalise Byzantium as your first move (but be ready to deal with disloyal subjects if you attack them and your khan dies before you conquer Ajam).

In my WC run as them, I broke the Ottomans, then conquered the Orthodox provinces from Muscovy, Lithuania and Balkans and switched to Orthodox for the massive power it offers. It also allowed me to PU some powerful Europeans.

Then I completed my Deccan mission tree for the admin efficiency and went wild…

By conquering entire culture groups, you both minimise coalitions and benefit from the cultural unity.

 

[FishieFan]

Its not relevant for you @harezmi , but I would suggest everyone reading and not doing One Faith to switch to Hindu. It gives addtional 20%CCR

Mughals already gets good claims, ccr réduction, and bonus from hindustani cultures

, -5%AE

As muslim you can get a - ae scholar along with wc cost reduction

and -15% minimum autonomy in territories

Useful but not overpowered

. It makes World Conquest much faster. There is even a Monument for 50% additional heir chance, so you can roll more heirs in the same time, resulting in better heirs.

Muslims already get +100%

Also, you can use Deus Vult against more nations compared to being sunni. Switch to Hindu when you have the cash to upgrade the CCR-Monument to tier 2 instantly.

Deus vult against more also means more coalitions from same wars

I agree with those recommending to deal with the Ottomans as a priority, instead of allying them.

You could either guarantee or straight-out no-CB attack and vassalise Byzantium as your first move (but be ready to deal with disloyal subjects if you attack them and your khan dies before you conquer Ajam).

In my WC run as them, I broke the Ottomans, then conquered the Orthodox provinces from Muscovy, Lithuania and Balkans and switched to Orthodox for the massive power it offers. It also allowed me to PU some powerful Europeans.

Then I completed my Deccan mission tree for the admin efficiency and went wild…

By conquering entire culture groups, you both minimise coalitions and benefit from the cultural unity.

Why no cb byz, by the time you have dehli and Syria, you can 1v1 ottos and snake through them. Theyll keep hungary and austria weak

 

[humb]

Mughals already gets good claims, ccr réduction, and bonus from hindustani cultures

Yes, but more is better, as it shortens the coring time as well, meaning you can take more land in a shorter time. Is it necessary? No. Is it useful for fast world conquests? Yes.

As muslim you can get a - ae scholar along with wc cost reduction

-5% AE was compared to the AE reduction muslims get with a scholar. As Hindu you get 15% (5 with Shiva, 10 with monument), so 5% more than sunni.

Deus vult against more also means more coalitions from same wars

Can you explain that? I don't understand it. Deus Vult gives 75% AE compared to the Conquest CB. It gives less AE for the same wars. And you can wage more wars against more nations. Which other CB would you use on egypt, ottomans, north africa, the malian region before the Imperialism CB? You can't get reconquest on everything. If you want your main trade node to leak as little as possible, you have to kill a lot of sunnis. Furthermore, the -warscore against other religions from malta and the age ability will apply against sunnis as well.

@harezmi you lose Mecca and it's 10% warscore vs other religion. And difference in CCR is 15% because you lose indian sultanate.
I did both runs in the past and it end result was very similar.

Thank you for the feedback. 10% warscore is a shame, but I would have valued it less important cmpared to 15% (thanks for the correction) CCR, especially in the Age of Reformation, where a lot of expansion should happen and you get -25% WS from the age ability. But interesting to hear, that results are pretty similar.

I completed Admin/Diplo and planning to take Offensive or Quantity next. I want a military idea just to have more policies available. I will get Religious after and I think until then I will not be short of claims.

I did not play Mughals recently, but I would not take a military idea group next. It is wasted opportunity cost in my opinion. My idea groups would be diplo --> religious --> admin --> humanist.

Muslims already get +100%

True, I was wrong on this point.

Thinking of joining and starting a Mughal campaign, how can one take the maximum advantage out of Sirhind/ Delhi? Vassalize Delhi and reconquest like mentioned on page one, but then it takes forever to integrate them in order to form Mughals. How did you do it?

 

[harezmi]

I did not play Mughals recently, but I would not take a military idea group next. It is wasted opportunity cost in my opinion. My idea groups would be diplo --> religious --> admin --> humanist.

Thinking of joining and starting a Mughal campaign, how can one take the maximum advantage out of Sirhind/ Delhi? Vassalize Delhi and reconquest like mentioned on page one, but then it takes forever to integrate them in order to form Mughals. How did you do it?

I went for Quantity. I had lots of extra Mil points, and I'm having a hard time waging wars in multiple fronts (and rebels). I have lots of claims from the mission tree and the vassals. I am also mostly bordering Muslim nations. I felt like Quantity along with its policies will help me better.

It took me a while to get the claims from the missions and by the time I raided Delhi, Sirhind annexed Delhi and formed Delhi. I allied with Jaunpur and ate it from opposite sides. I just took the necessary provinces to form Mughals. I don't think having a vassal in India is a good idea because Mughals has its own claims and CCR is much more efficient than the cost of diplo for annexation.

And I have another question. Now, I'm annexing my vassals, what vassals should be next for China/Mongolia (no Deus Vult) and East Africa where Ming and Kilwa dominates respectively?

 

[necro84]

Thinking of joining and starting a Mughal campaign, how can one take the maximum advantage out of Sirhind/ Delhi? Vassalize Delhi and reconquest like mentioned on page one, but then it takes forever to integrate them in order to form Mughals. How did you do it?

Declare on Delhi the same day Sirhind declares and occupy one province without fort e.g. Bhattiana. Sirhind will take the rest in the peace deal leaving OPM Delhi. If this OPM exists Sirhind will stay as Sirhind. You can take all provinces required to form Mughals from Sirhind and use Delhi to reconquest on Jaunpur. There is one downside of keeping Delhi as a vassal - before you integrate it you can't get 10% CCR from culture. For me it didn't matter because I was mainly expanding using subjects but if you want to conquer yourself it may not be so good. I'm explaining below why I use subjects

I don't think having a vassal in India is a good idea because Mughals has its own claims and CCR is much more efficient than the cost of diplo for annexation.

One of the advantages of vassals, especially one in the middle and south of India is that you can complete missions a lot faster and have Deccan event for 10% admin efficiency sooner. You can take more land with reconquest, you don't wait for coring and you don't fight rebels. Because there is no coring just after peace treaty you can use alliance or guarantee to reset truce with bigger nations like Bahmanis or VJ.


@humb if you want a fun campaign as Hindu Mughals there is one idea - start as Majapahit, complete mission that allows you to take Buddha as deity. Expand into India (vassalizing small nation north of Delhi for coring range is the easiest), change religion to Sunni, conquer everything needed to form Mughals (few provinces in Afganistan to change culture + Delhi). After forming Mughals you can go back to Hindu and because you completed mission you can select Buddha you can use Buddhist monuments too like Angkor Wat for 10% tech cost, Imperial City of Hue for another -10% autonomy. It can be nice with one faith as Hindu too because you can use missionaries from the Buddhist monuments and because you are Mughals you accept cultures for easier conversion

 

[harezmi]

UPDATE: MARCH 1516
Annexing Iraq, Syria, Dawasir. I'll run out of Diplo points. I should have spared Dawasir for AE reduction but it is harder to make right decisions after midnight.

I own Malta and upgraded already! I can get a claim for Granada, too but Castile is allied with France, Portugal and a bunch more. I have Ottomans on my side but still don't want to waste years there.

I have a subjugation CB on Yarkand (tributary of Ming) and right after I'll go for Uzbeks/Ming for the remaining Kazakh cores. I need money for Level 3 Kaaba and Malta Forts

I'll dissolve my alliance with VJ and they'll be next. They got so big. I hope Bahmanis/Bengal alliance fight with them and release new tags.

 

[humb]

My try on Mughals: Had some luck in the sense that Malwa and Sindh, after I fought them, were attacked by other nations (e.g. Bahmanis), so that I could immediatly, after completing a mission, attack for the next missions goals. Truces with Jaunpur, Bundelkand and Sirhind are running out this year, I should be able to get all Hindustani provinces in these wars for 10%CCR. Until 1475, I enjoy the 20%CCR from the timurid missions, making coring very cheap.
Looking back, I dont know why I got diplo-ideas. I'm only at Idea 4, but I do not need it atm. AE is high on all sunnis nearby, but nearly all are truce-locked and continue to be so. Only looking forward to 20% WS cost. May be taking religious or admin first next time. I will take religious as second group and flip to hindu. Then I will expand westwards towards Granada, desperatly trying to get more merchants. Until then I will eat as much of India as possible.

 

[FishieFan]

My try on Mughals: Had some luck in the sense that Malwa and Sindh, after I fought them, were attacked by other nations (e.g. Bahmanis), so that I could immediatly, after completing a mission, attack for the next missions goals. Truces with Jaunpur, Bundelkand and Sirhind are running out this year, I should be able to get all Hindustani provinces in these wars for 10%CCR. Until 1475, I enjoy the 20%CCR from the timurid missions, making coring very cheap.
Looking back, I dont know why I got diplo-ideas. I'm only at Idea 4, but I do not need it atm. AE is high on all sunnis nearby, but nearly all are truce-locked and continue to be so. Only looking forward to 20% WS cost. May be taking religious or admin first next time. I will take religious as second group and flip to hindu. Then I will expand westwards towards Granada, desperatly trying to get more merchants. Until then I will eat as much of India as possible.

View attachment 918134

How do your truces line up, did you annex sirhind first then dehli?

 

[humb]

How do your truces line up, did you annex sirhind first then dehli?

I followed the advice of @necro84 and saved Delhi from Sirhind in the initial war of independence. But I did not vassalize them. Declared on Sirhind ~1454, for Delhi (province), Doaba and some provinces needed to reach them. But I snaked over Kashmir and Ladakh in beforehand, so I did not need so many provinces. Multan declared reconquest on Sirhind and got a lot of provinces. I declared on Jaunpur as soon as I formed Mudhals. They were allied to Multan and Chagatai, I set Multan as co-belligerent, as they brought in Delhi additionally. I peaced out Delhi (annex) and Multan (most of Punjab) seperatly for lots of diplo-points and took maximum I could of Jaunpur.
Jaunpur guaranteed some minor nation in the himalaya, which I declared on in order to reset the truce to 5 years. Similarly, in the second war against Jaunpur (+ Multan (annexed separatly and Chagatai (peaced out cancelling alliance with Jaunpur) I could not take all provinces needed to finish the Hindustan-mission and get all hindustani-cultured provinces. But they allied Mewat afterwards, with whom the truce ran out 1 year later, so I could take the missing provinces in a separat peace afterwards.
Next wars are Bengal (+Bahmanis, plan is to get a separate peace to end 2 years after the peace with Gujarat and cancelling the alliance to Bengal), Gujarat, Sindh and then Bahmanis again.

Got quite lucky in how it all turned out, I guess.