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Jul 15, 2007
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With colonist size set to 400 it would be easy, as :
You get colonist bonus for bordering the hordes.
You can use +1 colonist NI.

EDIT: Easy solution would be bordering one of the hordes from the beggining(or if not then do a border with one asap), so you get their lands faster.
 

stnikolauswagne

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With colonist size set to 400 it would be easy, as :
You get colonist bonus for bordering the hordes.
You can use +1 colonist NI.

EDIT: Easy solution would be bordering one of the hordes from the beggining(or if not then do a border with one asap), so you get their lands faster.
It wont work. Period. There is still the matter of approximately 1000 Infamy you'd have to burn in under 100 years (it takes a time to consolidate Europe afterall) Remember that you may never get above 10% of your Limit until you inherited everyone and formed the HRE.
Please stop telling us that it might work because it simply wont. Around 1680 is the record by which I imagine one could conquer everything and before 1650 is probably even impossible.
Also you probably have never tried to colonize the last easternmost horde provinces. The time a colonist needs to travel from Wallachia to the Oirat horde are above 400 Days, so all in all every province there takes 3 Years and you probably have more than 20 of those, making it 60 years for the last horde provinces alone.
 

alexti

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I am pretty sure that 1500 is a little bit to early, even if you inherit everyone in Europe within the first 10 years you'd still only have very little time. Remember that conquering Japan alone takes 30+ Years, Annexing Ming also takes lots of time....
I think it depends on whether you count colonizing the world as part of WC requirements or not. I don't think you can finish colonization by 1500, but GH might be able to conquer everyone by 1500 - it would be a mighty micromanagement-fest though
 

alexti

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It wont work. Period. There is still the matter of approximately 1000 Infamy you'd have to burn in under 100 years (it takes a time to consolidate Europe afterall)
If you use cheesy tactics, infamy is not a problem in DW - you can release cored vassals, cede cored lands, release vassals in a peace treaties, use PU and HRE etc... Horde colonization can also be handled. You can have around 9 man/month growth rate which means that time to get a province is time to send a colonist +9 years - around 10 years. In the earlier stages you'll only need to ensure that all horde provinces are adjacent to yours. So you can probably do horde colonization within 25-30 years. Though I suspect that right from the start of the game you'll need to focus on maximizing colonists (meaning building coastal CoT), because colonists are going to be a bottleneck.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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When i will be able to play EU, i will try to show it is possible. Still regardless, i think it is possible. Hard but possible.

EDIT: Dependant on how much cores you got you can release cored vassals in certain amount, but if you got place to release 10 vassals you loose 2 infamy per province of theirs. If they are OPM's it is 10 provinces, meaning 20 infamy. You can end their vassalage and reconquest them in 5 years without loosing stab, or if you manage to make your stabcost to negative value - which is quite good as you don't need to care about truces - it is 3 months. But of course you got limited number of diplomats... And this is more of a problem here. That is why you need to be full aristocratic. And i think meaning being at constant war.
 
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Alanthiras

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When i will be able to play EU, i will try to show it is possible. Still regardless, i think it is possible. Hard but possible.

EDIT: Dependant on how much cores you got you can release cored vassals in certain amount, but if you got place to release 10 vassals you loose 2 infamy per province of theirs. If they are OPM's it is 10 provinces, meaning 20 infamy. You can end their vassalage and reconquest them in 5 years without loosing stab, or if you manage to make your stabcost to negative value - which is quite good as you don't need to care about truces - it is 3 months. But of course you got limited number of diplomats... And this is more of a problem here. That is why you need to be full aristocratic. And i think meaning being at constant war.

You hit the spot there, I have only tried one dw vanilla WC and haven't played much 5.1 but from what I remember colonists were a non-issue since you get .33? colonists / bordering horde province so you just had to make your border to them as long as possible. But as for the diplomats, even playing as england if you can have most of france conquered by 1407 with cores You'll never be able to keep more than 20-ish provinces in rotation for release vassalisation / annexation wars (about 7 vassals) and then you're going to be completely starved of diplomats and unable to end wars as fast as you wish. ANd 20 provinces in rotation is 400 infamy burned / 100 years witch is not nearly enough for a WC.
 
Jul 15, 2007
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You hit the spot there, I have only tried one dw vanilla WC and haven't played much 5.1 but from what I remember colonists were a non-issue since you get .33? colonists / bordering horde province so you just had to make your border to them as long as possible. But as for the diplomats, even playing as england if you can have most of france conquered by 1407 with cores You'll never be able to keep more than 20-ish provinces in rotation for release vassalisation / annexation wars (about 7 vassals) and then you're going to be completely starved of diplomats and unable to end wars as fast as you wish. ANd 20 provinces in rotation is 400 infamy burned / 100 years witch is not nearly enough for a WC.

So we got 400 infamy burned, then, we need only like 600 more. If you get all possible modifires i think you get -0.30 year from 6 star diplomat, -0.20 from some italian schoolars decision, -0.25 from owning papacy, -0.40 from embassy, and 0.3 to 0.9 from king diplo rate if i am right. It is like -1,05 infamy per year minimum, and -1,45 when you got embassy, while at max it is -2,05 reduction. There may be other modifires, but i don't know about them... it is like 150 infamy burned. Additional you can be lucky and get 5 times the -6 infamy event from advisor, which adds -30 infamy. I think if ur lucky you can reduce infamy by 200 from such things... still you need like 400 infamy more... if ur lucky.

So maybe it is impossible, anyway maybe there is some other way to do it. Still conquering whole europe by 1500 is certainly possible.
 

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When i will be able to play EU, i will try to show it is possible. Still regardless, i think it is possible. Hard but possible.
Good. I was hoping someone would give it a try for a long time :)

EDIT: Dependant on how much cores you got you can release cored vassals in certain amount, but if you got place to release 10 vassals you loose 2 infamy per province of theirs. If they are OPM's it is 10 provinces, meaning 20 infamy. You can end their vassalage and reconquest them in 5 years without loosing stab, or if you manage to make your stabcost to negative value - which is quite good as you don't need to care about truces - it is 3 months. But of course you got limited number of diplomats... And this is more of a problem here. That is why you need to be full aristocratic. And i think meaning being at constant war.
Limited number of diplomats (and colonists) is likely to be the main obstacle. You should be able to get negative stabcosts without too much difficulty (though cumulative stabcost still says above zero for some reason - it's small enough not to matter though). The problem with breaking truce isn't that much in stabcost, but in +5 WE it gives to you. If you decide to play with max WE, the micromanagement will likely become insane. So I wouldn't rely on breaking truce very often.
 

alexti

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You hit the spot there, I have only tried one dw vanilla WC and haven't played much 5.1 but from what I remember colonists were a non-issue since you get .33? colonists / bordering horde province so you just had to make your border to them as long as possible. But as for the diplomats, even playing as england if you can have most of france conquered by 1407 with cores You'll never be able to keep more than 20-ish provinces in rotation for release vassalisation / annexation wars (about 7 vassals) and then you're going to be completely starved of diplomats and unable to end wars as fast as you wish. ANd 20 provinces in rotation is 400 infamy burned / 100 years witch is not nearly enough for a WC.
Number of colonists from bordering the horde is capped (at 1.67 AFAIR), so there's no easy way around colonist limits - you need to be building coastal CoTs like there's no tomorrow. But you can burn infamy on more provinces later on. For example, if you vassalize and then diplo-annex Norway, you can cycle 12 (I think) provinces at the cost of a single diplomat after it cores (perhaps around 1470). This can work well with any country that has many poor provinces. Or, even better, start with someone like Ottomans, so that you can simply annex target countries right away for 1 per province. There are big advantages in playing muslim country for 1500 WC - there are only few muslim non-horde countries and you have holy war right from the start (and you have better military units too - really helps in obliterating rebels).
 

stnikolauswagne

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Please, guys, has anyone of you actually managed to do a WC that early? Sure, its theoretically possible to finish it by 1500, but its also theoretically possible to inherit the entirety of europe by 1400......
A WC that early could be easily killed by a "smugglers running rampant" or a similar event. And if you fail at such an early date you fail hard, meaning you will be back on the drawing bord...
Also you all seem to forgot that you have to a) actually get the opportunity to PU a country, and b) you have to inherit all those countries within 1 or 2 monarch deaths. Sorry, but thats just not realistic. The last 80 years of my own WC (1700-1780) where spent waiting for my kings to die so that I could inherit enough of my PU's to integrate the rest in one go. Actually inheriting countries is still based on mostly luck (its surprisingly hard to get a high diplomacy-modifier if there are just 8 countries in the world) and you all seem to think that you will have endless luck.
 

alexti

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Please, guys, has anyone of you actually managed to do a WC that early?
No - that's why we're trying to theorize whether it's doable :)

Sure, its theoretically possible to finish it by 1500, but its also theoretically possible to inherit the entirety of europe by 1400......
A WC that early could be easily killed by a "smugglers running rampant" or a similar event. And if you fail at such an early date you fail hard, meaning you will be back on the drawing bord...
Also you all seem to forgot that you have to a) actually get the opportunity to PU a country, and b) you have to inherit all those countries within 1 or 2 monarch deaths. Sorry, but thats just not realistic. The last 80 years of my own WC (1700-1780) where spent waiting for my kings to die so that I could inherit enough of my PU's to integrate the rest in one go. Actually inheriting countries is still based on mostly luck (its surprisingly hard to get a high diplomacy-modifier if there are just 8 countries in the world) and you all seem to think that you will have endless luck.
I don't think such ultrafast WC can rely on PU at all. I suspect that Ottomans or GH would be a best bet. However, I have finished christian cheese-free WC by 1713 and there were many periods when I just had to wait for infamy to burn (since I had no other ways but natural burn rate available). With the experience, I think that even cheese-free WC can be completed much earlier - perhaps by 1650. There were few things I would have done differently if I knew better. But if you use all gamey tactics available you can burn a lot of infamy. Diplomats are more likely to be the hardest constraint
 

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Number of colonists from bordering the horde is capped (at 1.67 AFAIR), so there's no easy way around colonist limits - you need to be building coastal CoTs like there's no tomorrow. But you can burn infamy on more provinces later on. For example, if you vassalize and then diplo-annex Norway, you can cycle 12 (I think) provinces at the cost of a single diplomat after it cores (perhaps around 1470). This can work well with any country that has many poor provinces. Or, even better, start with someone like Ottomans, so that you can simply annex target countries right away for 1 per province. There are big advantages in playing muslim country for 1500 WC - there are only few muslim non-horde countries and you have holy war right from the start (and you have better military units too - really helps in obliterating rebels).

There is allways a way around everything :) I remember playins muscowy once and completely obliterating the golden horde's armies, once that happen pretty much all it's neighbors jumped on colonizing it's provinces so I recon if you have problems with few colonists then you just obliterate golden horde / the timurids armies and the AI will help you out :) Not to mention the timurids will most likely collapse into non-horde muslim states wich you can annex with holy war.

Also diplo-annexing isn't really an option since you loose 1 stab when you diplo-annex(you still do that right? :p). Stab cost will be in 5-6 digits and you can't count on the luck of 5-6 star advisors. And yeh, I tried using bigger countries such as scotland but you need 2 wars to annex them. :<

I agree though, a muslim country could be the way to go; you won't have the minors to release and annex immediately but there'll be alot of provinces you can take with holy war, expecially if you can backstab the muslims in india and give the hindu's the upper hand.
 

alexti

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There is allways a way around everything :) I remember playins muscowy once and completely obliterating the golden horde's armies, once that happen pretty much all it's neighbors jumped on colonizing it's provinces so I recon if you have problems with few colonists then you just obliterate golden horde / the timurids armies and the AI will help you out :)
That's a good point. I got too used to thinking that it's better to let hordes conquer their neighbours to save infamy, but with using infamy-burning cheese it becomes opposite :)

Also diplo-annexing isn't really an option since you loose 1 stab when you diplo-annex(you still do that right? :p). Stab cost will be in 5-6 digits and you can't count on the luck of 5-6 star advisors.
I don't remember exact costs, but when I was doing WC most of the time stabhit recovery was 1-2 months, so it's not a big issue. 10 years waiting period is much more limiting factor.

And yeh, I tried using bigger countries such as scotland but you need 2 wars to annex them. :<
I am not sure about Scotland - you can remove some cores if necessary or pick a set of suitable countries.
 
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I think that being a big horde (Timurids or GH) could help in WC, due that you don't take infamy for conquest, and you just need to destroy all things on your way - then just reform the goverment and westernize. Ofc, propably you will be left with england and portugal as last western nations, and as you could not build fleet, it may be hard to defeat them, but all other things, are just quite easy. I think hordes need just to take asia and europe + north and east africa, and then reform the goverment + westernize, and then go to conquer the new world. Still TSC, will be hell. But it is allways so, who cares?
 

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If you play a horde there will be more than just england and portugal left, everyone who gives this advice seems to forget about Brunei, Japan, Aceh, the native Americans etc. Also you probably wont be able to westernize and subsequently reform the government by 1500, so a horde seems out of the question.
I also disagree that you cant rely on PU's, I do believe that you have to, since there are countries that you cant get any good cb on (french minors, Scandinavian Nations etc.) so you will have to be very lucky with PU's. Playing the Ottomans wont help either, since the time you gain by your Holy War against Europe will be spent gobbling up german OPM's. Your best bet is probably to form the HRE somewhere around 1405, then PU everything in Europe and go nuts on the crusading-front. Also you should probably play on very hard and high aggressiveness for very strong hordes.
 

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I spent much of the past year hospitalized after a bad car accident, during which I played a lot of DW. As the Timurids, I managed to conquer the Middle-East, North Africa, East Africa, India, the Balkans, Italy, Hungary, and Poland by ~1420, when I became the Mughals. I also conquered Chagatai, the Oirats, Kazakhs, and much of the Golden Horde, which allowed me to use standard diplomacy to take provinces. I used monthly auto-saving and reloaded whenever Timur died until after I changed tags (Timur died in 1426). Yes, I recognize that is a cheese tactic. After the tag change, I switched governments to become an Empire, and used the Holy War CB to conquer the provinces along the Atlantic coast. Since I took out nearly all Muslim powers while a Horde, I had access to the Holy War CB against everyone except the Islamic nations in Indonesia, which means that nearly every province was acquired for either 0 infamy (when I was a Horde taking non-Horde provinces), 1 infamy (using the Holy War CB), or 2 infamy (using the Tribal Feud? CB). The potential colonist bottleneck was avoided by conquering nearly all Horde provinces while a Horde myself. Also, starting as the Timurids (this would also apply to any Horde other than GOL) means the earliest you can build ships with easy access to the Mediterranean/Atlantic is 1452 (conquer a province along the Black Sea in 1400, ~2 years for it to flip, then 50 years for it to core and allow ship-building). In particular, this means that Britain has a good chance to start colonizing the Americas before you can do anything about it. Note, I did not make the WC until after 1600, bu had I used more save cheese to avoid nasty events and regency councils then it would have been much earlier.

In any event, the issue that cropped up for me was revolts and money. Continuously expanding that quickly means a large amount of time will be spent with uncored heatens provinces that have nationalism while suffering from Overextension. The first issue arising from those factors is that you'll have absurd revolt risk nearly everywhere, even if you're playing smart and keeping your WE low. That means that you need a significant percentage of your forces kept stationed around your nation to crush the revolters. This ties in to the second issue, money. Uncored, heathen, wrong culture provinces do not provide much in the way taxes. If your fighting wars against a Ming that has conquered nearly all of eastern and south-eastern Asia, Britain, France, Spain, and Portugal, that's a lot of troops that you need beyond the anti-rebel stacks. Troops and ships cost money, and you're not getting very much relative to your size. Neither is crippling, but it necessitates huge amounts of micro. Note, however, that while still a Horde, nearly every ducat you can spare needs to go into Government tech, and thus you need to avoid inflation like the plague and frequently convert 200 ducats into 100 research. Then, when you're no longer a Horde, you need to focus on Trade tech like there's no tomorrow to get QFTNW and be able to conquer the Americas and Africa before you hit 1500.

I'd wager that if you're going for a WC by 1500, a Horde is definitely your best bet, and possibly your only bet. In particular, the Timurids start off with good positioning to expand against same-religion nations while a Horde and then switch to the Mughals before Timur dies, but run the risk of Britain, Norway (via Iceland), and the Irish minors colonizing before you can reach them. The Golden Horde would provide for earlier access to ships that can reach the north Atlantic and conquer Britain, Ireland, and Iceland before they can colonize, but will struggle with conquering all Islamic nations before needing to switch tags. The biggest challenge as a horde, though, is reaching Gov 4 before your ruler dies.

Anyways, I think that a WC by 1500 could be possible, but it would involve huge amounts of micro and some luck. I'd also expect that only a few countries start off with enough natural advantage to make it feasible. Obviously, I'd give the Timurids and Golden Horde as the two that are most likely for success, and then I'd wager that England, Castille, Hungary, Muscovy (thanks to its missions allowing it to form Russia pretty quickly, giving lots of free cores to gobble for 0 infamy), and France all have natural advantages and missions that would make this potentially feasible. No matter who is picked, I doubt it would be possible without some amount of save cheese to avoid regency councils and crushingly bad events.


I'm sure that OP has figured out by now that WC in DW is definitely doable.
 
Jul 15, 2007
8.713
2
So, as i sad - Horde - and i think best would be leaving other hordes, unless you aim to PU them. Why? Because you colonize them for 0 infamy... So first, as horde, conquer all muslims, and as much other provinces as possible, and then, forming mughals after which, you conquer hordes & westernize if possible, go QFNTW, and conquer all countries, and burn any infamy you gain. I think that while you are horde, you should conquer all asian countries, and as much european ones possible.
 

slepire

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Jul 27, 2010
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Though, while you're a Horde, infamy isn't much of an issue, because you won't be gaining any for any of your other conquests. Thus, it's easy to conquer some of the other hordes and still end up back at 0 infamy before switching tags, when infamy becomes important. Conquering Nogai, Kazakh, and Chagatai, and at least part of the Oirats will generate about 15 years worth of infamy, while you'll be hard pressed to make Gov 4 within 20 years. Time spent with 0 infamy is time wasted.
 
Jul 15, 2007
8.713
2
Though, while you're a Horde, infamy isn't much of an issue, because you won't be gaining any for any of your other conquests. Thus, it's easy to conquer some of the other hordes and still end up back at 0 infamy before switching tags, when infamy becomes important. Conquering Nogai, Kazakh, and Chagatai, and at least part of the Oirats will generate about 15 years worth of infamy, while you'll be hard pressed to make Gov 4 within 20 years. Time spent with 0 infamy is time wasted.

You may be right. Then, conquering some horde lands is not bad as long as you will manage to burn it.