WC - 3rd attempt on normal diff

[Viadro]

I wanted to go for some achies but then I realized that I probably should start with a WC as this way I will get some as well and then will do the rest.

I have already tried a WC twice, with Ottos:
1. Sunni Ottomans
- focused on Europe and Africa too much, couldn't attack some provinces in Africa as there was a one-province gap between that I would have to colonize first
- somewhere at the 1700ish I decided to actually try Coptomans
2. Coptic Ottomans
- again, didn't reach Ming until 1700ish, lots of lvl6 forts, also took quantity which I think is useless for Ottos

So my 3rd attempt I was planning the following:
a) Coptic Ottomans
Switch to Coptic -> become Emperor for the additional 10% CCR -> focus hard on Asia
ideas: Religious (for CB) -> Admin (for CCR) -> Influ/Diplo (I kindah see Influ as useless as I did not have any problems with coalitions and the only other good buff is while eating vassals) -> Offensive (siege)

b) France
noCB Byzantium -> try to get Naples as vassal -> Eat GB in the meantime -> reconquest Ottos for Byz -> focus on Asia -> jump from GB to Scandinavia and Russia in the meantime
ideas: I need some hlp here, I understand that when I feed Byz I need to annex it afterwards to start a hard push for Ming? What ides do you recommend I should start with? Is Religious still viable in this scenario?
WHen converting Asia I will be swimming in Papal Points, does it mean I should stay Catholic or I still should switch to Coptic ASAP?

I really have no experience in late game for WC, especially what to do with colonizers and Americas.
Should I take explo and start colonizing my self? Or should I simply eat the colonizers to get their colonies for free?
I also released Persia and fed it with reconquest, for me it seems like a huge mistake as their LD went skyroof and their armies were useless for decades =[

 

[Dominion]

You take Influence for the policy because your lategame will be constant vassal feeding + integration of old vassals becuase you'll get up to 500%OE if you don't have anything to stuff it into.

And ending both runs just before Imperialism hit robbed you of the only experience that actually matters in a WC: Lategame expansion

You can easily take half the world in the final 100 years.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Switch to Coptic -> become Emperor for the additional 10% CCR -> focus hard on Asia

Cut out the part with the Emperor and you are fine.
That whole HRE shit is not worth the hassle if you can just expand like mad in the other direction.

Religious (for CB) -> Admin (for CCR) -> Influ/Diplo (I kindah see Influ as useless as I did not have any problems with coalitions and the only other good buff is while eating vassals) -> Offensive (siege)

1. The Ottomans could have taken Religious first back when the CB was still the first Idea.
But they dont need it at the start. You get unbelieveable amounts of claims from missions, by the time you are done with those the second ideagroup is around the corner.

2. Depending on you pace of early expansion the 20% RCC from the first idea is enough, if you have decent rulers and use vassals and coring in parallel.

So going Influence into Religious into Admin can be better.
I could even see Influence into Religious into Quantity into Admin working. With Humanist as fifth.

3. If you see Influence as useless then you cant be expanding all that fast. The only limiting factors for the Ottomans are AE and coring time.
I have personaly stopped using Diplo if i find a source of a fourth Diplomat elsewhere.
Playing with only three doenst really work for me.

noCB Byzantium -> try to get Naples as vassal -> Eat GB in the meantime -> reconquest Ottos for Byz -> focus on Asia -> jump from GB to Scandinavia and Russia in the meantime

You plan kinda reads like

1. Attack someone
2. ???
3. Profit


I havent played France before since i find the starting position around that area to be a cesspool
but the Plan seems very contrived.
You have some really big jumps. Ottomans --> Asia is a big leap.

Napels is quite out of the way. Why do you care about them specifically? Especially if you plan to have Byz which is in the same area.

Taking out the Ottomans early is certainly valuable, possible and fun but what does that give you other than not having to fight them later?
You seem to be planing alot of stuff which takes a long time to pay of.
And all those conquests dont bring in money, which can be a problem. You want to be rich sooner rather that later.

I might try to start with attacks against Castille and Aragon and better control over Genoa trade.
Vassalize Portugal to colonize for you. Take your cores back, let England colonize aswell.
Vassalize Genoa for acces to the black sea.
Alternate your conquests between opening new money route and new attack paths.

For comparison here are two pictures of my first WC One-Faith done back in 1.17.
France could do something similar but faster.
I would however not play this without Influence into Religious.
The AE will kill you and the claim fabrication will make you kill yourself.



This was a Unify Islam into Orthodox One-Faith.
The Unify gave me a clear goal early on to work towards while also keeping track of the big picture.

 

[PhoenixG]

I wouldn't try the become the emperor, since it's heavy RNG based (you need the treaty of westphalia, or go catholic first pass all the reforms till the one that banned the emperor election then flip to coptic). And since never succesfully did a WC, it will a lot worse in terms of timing. You'll be fiddling the the HRE at least till ~1600 before you can even expand.

 

[Viadro]

You take Influence for the policy because your lategame will be constant vassal feeding + integration of old vassals becuase you'll get up to 500%OE if you don't have anything to stuff it into.

And ending both runs just before Imperialism hit robbed you of the only experience that actually matters in a WC: Lategame expansion

You can easily take half the world in the final 100 years.

If I need influ for late game policy why should I take it as my 1st idea group? I mean, wouldnt a CCR or Deus cb be more usefull for a starter?

 

[Dominion]

That wasn't my point. My point was that you said Influence is useless even though it's the bread and butter of every WC.

And the order is a debate that can continue from now until we die. Everyone has their own preference.

Personally I think religious is utterly useless and Vulkandrache takes it early.
Take note that he does mention that you shouldn't take it first because you get free claims on Levant, Mesopotamia, etc. so taking it first is definitely time wasted. That we can agree on.

But beyond that? He takes it, I don't. I'm not going to tell him he's a worse player because he might play a different style than I do where religious is more important.

Personally I enjoy constant warfare from start to finish. I take admin first, fill three slots, take Influence second because at the speed at which I'm going the AE reduction and improv rel becomes essential. I also like to create a cute little vassal in Europe and use "threaten war" whenever I can. Usually grows to own all of Italy and then some by the time I turn back to Europe.

I recently talked to someone who doesn't take any mil ideas early on and just wobbles around until he gets 4k dev because he prefers to play a relaxed game and to explode with immense speed once Imperialism hits.

Ask yourself how you want to play and then adjust the order yourself.

But Idea group order really is a topic for later runs. For now you shouldn't focus too much on these things.
Make sure you don't take anything useless and learn how Imperialism and vassal feeding works.
Which vassals have ICC, missionary strength, CCCR, do they have cores you can reconquest, which culture group do they belong to? Anything that's useful or useless.
Make sure you grab good ones.

And stop ending games at 1700.
Better to ruin a run that wasn't looking good to begin with and at least learn something than to ruin the perfect run because you don't know how lategame expansion works.

 

[PhoenixG]

I recently talked to someone who doesn't take any mil ideas early on and just wobbles around until he gets 4k dev because he prefers to play a relaxed game and to explode with immense speed once Imperialism hits.

Guess I'm one of them. First 4 is admin, influence, diplo, religious/humanist. The order I'll take really depends on the situation and my MP gain and I'll adapt it with my playstyle. The last 4 are all mil ideas.

 

[Viadro]

Playing my 1st attempt taught me thst without Deus Im always at 0 diplo points since taking anytinh but the claimed province costs diplo. Do at some point I was like 2 diplo tech behind and couldnt annex my vassals due to lack of birdie mana.

So playing the 2nd I started with Rel and it was working as a charm. I could DOW anyone I wanted in Asia and take as many provinces I wanted and it still cost me literally 0 birdies.

So I really do not understand why pple say Rel ideas arw garbage.

I know I got plenty of missions, but lets be honest, taking all of Levant for example gakes some time, right? And this means that you cant take anything else in the meantime without paying birdies.

 

[Haze340]

Like Dominion said, the game really takes off the during the last hundred years. Once you get the advanced casus bellis and the admin efficiency you can gobble up huge amounts of land and core them cheap, even cheaper if you are ottos w/ admin ideas. Influence & diploannexing is also a good idea so that you aren't limited only by your admin mana to take land.

Also for not grabbing mil ideas until later its totally viable unless you plan on pushing heavily into europe in the early game. Everyone in africa/asia are mostly pushovers.

if you are having trouble with mana just go and get some vassals. georgia, the balkan nations, or a defeated timurids/persia (reclaim cores is amazing) are a few that you can easily pick up early game.

 

[Dominion]

Playing my 1st attempt taught me thst without Deus Im always at 0 diplo points since taking anytinh but the claimed province costs diplo. Do at some point I was like 2 diplo tech behind and couldnt annex my vassals due to lack of birdie mana.

Right after you take Byz you get the Levant mission, giving you claims on more than you could possibly take in a single war.
Later on you get claims on Mesopotamia (Mashriq region).

You can barely take anything that isn't auto-claimed by you during your early game.

Europe creates unnecessary AE, Circassia is ugly ICC land which you don't need since you get access to Horde lands through Ukraine and Horde lands won't be taken by you because it's pure dirt and doesn't give you anything. Persia is either going to defect to you or a reconquest war, etc.

By the time you've ran out of free claims you're almost at your third idea group.

So I really do not understand why pple say Rel ideas arw garbage.

I'm no going to start that discussion

I know I got plenty of missions, but lets be honest, taking all of Levant for example gakes some time, right? And this means that you cant take anything else in the meantime without paying birdies.

You're taking the whole south+east for free. What else do you want to take? Hungary?

 

[Vulkandrache]

I know I got plenty of missions, but lets be honest, taking all of Levant for example gakes some time, right? And this means that you cant take anything else in the meantime without paying birdies.

That sentence shows that you lack experience in the fine details.
The Levant mission can be canceled after you started coring the claimed provinces and will reappear later for the next batch.
You are without mission for one year, after that there are many more to complete in the 14 years of truce.

So I really do not understand why pple say Rel ideas arw garbage.

1. I take them because i One-Faith all my campaigns.
2. I cant play be arsed to fabricate every time i want to go to war.
That means taking Religious early, playing a Horde or playing the Ottomans.
3. Proper gameplay involves picking rivals strategically so that you get to stack

50% + 33% + 10% unjustified demands from Idea + Rival + Despotic.

This makes every province cost 2-3 Dip.

Right after you take Byz you get the Levant mission

For most Ottoman starts the mission requires you to border the Mamluks, but thats details.

Europe creates unnecessary AE

AE is a ressource, not having any is a waste, because it cant tick down.

You're taking the whole south+east for free. What else do you want to take? Hungary?

You actually get missions for the whole area.

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Ottoman_missions#Conquer_Bosnia

Stuff to do while nothing else is going on.

 

[Dominion]

For most Ottoman starts the mission requires you to border the Mamluks, but thats details.

You "border" them through the seatile thanks to Teke.
Didn't even know you needed to border them. I just take it right after City of worldly desire.
Always there, never put much thought into its triggers.

AE is a ressource, not having any is a waste, because it cant tick down.

Agreed. But wrong religion gives +25% and HRE members get another 25%. You can't get much out of Europe compared to the resources invested and you don't want to create potential coalition members.
Hungary is an unnecessary investment. Wallachia has ICC. There really isn't much to pick up there.
Aside from the Italian vassal I mentioned earlier, which I like to feed.
After a few years you'll grab Iberia because it doesn't create much AE and it will still build enough to prevent you from going in any deeper.

Bosnia+Serbia can be taken too. At least Kosovo will be taken, but any expansion into Europe in an Ottoman run is a waste of time on the current patch. If you need something else to do with your troops you're better off pushing north to cut off Russia from its colonization route.
Doesn't create AE, gives you access to Novgorod once it's worth some cash and prevents the lategame drag that is a war against Russia.

Sometimes I feel like I could take a shower, cook dinner and father two children in the time it takes me to get from Troitsky to Mangazea.

 

[Viadro]

OK, so I'm trying th Coptomans again, the plan is to focus heavily on Asia this time, ideas: Admin (up to 3rd idea) -> Religious (for Deus) -> Influ (for vassals) -> Diplo -> Mil.
Plan is to cut off Muscovy quickly in the north by taking Moscow and eat Asia to get tthe juicy merchants. My questions for now are:

1. Do I need to get the Explo ideas in order to cover the Africa? I'm always ending up with some 1-province gap that I would have to colonize in order to border next country =[
2. How should I handle MIng? Should I become his Tributary and loose Great Power? Or should I simply attack some minor to draw Ming in, then DOW my real target and peace out first one quickly?
3. Shuld I cover the Africa northern shore so that Portugal and Castille wont take it?

 

[PhoenixG]

OK, so I'm trying th Coptomans again, the plan is to focus heavily on Asia this time, ideas: Admin (up to 3rd idea) -> Religious (for Deus) -> Influ (for vassals) -> Diplo -> Mil.
Plan is to cut off Muscovy quickly in the north by taking Moscow and eat Asia to get tthe juicy merchants. My questions for now are:

1. Do I need to get the Explo ideas in order to cover the Africa? I'm always ending up with some 1-province gap that I would have to colonize in order to border next country =[
2. How should I handle MIng? Should I become his Tributary and loose Great Power? Or should I simply attack some minor to draw Ming in, then DOW my real target and peace out first one quickly?
3. Shuld I cover the Africa northern shore so that Portugal and Castille wont take it?

you can't go admin -> religious. If you pick an adm idea first your next one needs to be a dip or mil idea.

1. if you have MoH you don't need explo, since in the age of revolution you can pick unrestricted coring range. If not, you can pick explo as 5th. Only take the first (if you hate getting maps also pick second). Ditch the idea after you finished the colony that connects the center Africa.

2. I'm not a big fan to be come Ming's pet, just I can eat his tributaries. But you can do it.

3. Nah. North Africa is filthy ICC land. Touch it later when you have decent admin eff.

 

[Dominion]

You either go admin > influence > religious or influence > religious > admin

North Africa route is taken by some. Usually followed by pushing into West Africa (Morocco colonizes the bridge in 1550 per event), vassalizing Portugal and either vassalizing or eating Castille.

Other people prefer a heavier push into East Africa or full throttle into India.

Pushing into India is going to happen no matter what. The intensity is up to you.

 

[Vulkandrache]

you can't go admin -> religious. If you pick an adm idea first your next one needs to be a dip or mil idea.

That option was added months ago, is there anyone not playing with unlocked ideagroup restriction?

How should I handle MIng? Should I become his Tributary and loose Great Power? Or should I simply attack some minor to draw Ming in, then DOW my real target and peace out first one quickly?

It takes a while for Ming to start tributarizing India. If you get there not slow you can get control all the way to Bengal without meeting them.
After that you can just ignore them until later. You are not looking to conquer India just to conquer India.
Once you have control over most of the trade you can go elsewhere.

Handling Ming becomes alot easier if you can just land 300k Infantry and 200k Cannons by boat into Beijing.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

2. How should I handle MIng? Should I become his Tributary and loose Great Power? Or should I simply attack some minor to draw Ming in, then DOW my real target and peace out first one quickly?

Watch Chagatai and Oirat, they regularly refuse tribute to due having subjects themselves. Declare on them when they aren't tributaries, get a border, wait

Also, a specific reason why you didn't consider Austria, only France and Ottos? I think Austria is hilariously OP in singleplayer

 

[CplKatie]

That option was added months ago, is there anyone not playing with unlocked ideagroup restriction?


It takes a while for Ming to start tributarizing India. If you get there not slow you can get control all the way to Bengal without meeting them.
After that you can just ignore them until later. You are not looking to conquer India just to conquer India.
Once you have control over most of the trade you can go elsewhere.

Handling Ming becomes alot easier if you can just land 300k Infantry and 200k Cannons by boat into Beijing.

If you want cheevos you want idea group restrictions. Ironman doesn't always equal cheevos enabled.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

2. I'm not a big fan to be come Ming's pet, just I can eat his tributaries. But you can do it.

In addition to free-bashing all the tributaries, there is one other significant and amusing upside to becoming tributary:

 

[Viadro]

so if I become MIng's tributary, all AE is transferred to MIng then? xD