Way to Modify the HRE?

[billt568]

So the HRE and its doomstack mechanics are really bothering me, to the point where my history obsession is making it hard to play. Does anyone know of a mod or means to make it a loose confederation with a titular title that is voted on by the 5 electors? Or a way to make raising crown authority about 500x harder? Or maybe always reset CA down a notch when a new ruler of the HRE is elected? Like when Henry V died, the Salians were out, and it basically was a free for all for until Frederick and Henry VI, and when they died the crown authority dropped again. EU3 was perfect in how it handled the HRE, but in most of my games it becomes a consolidated state that ends up in circular wars crushing tuscan independent at high or absolute authority.

And no, I dont want CK2+, its just too big and bloated now for my taste. I like the vanilla game, just hate HRE mechanics.

 

[whosthebestcop]

Typically HRE is only stable when they have a long reigning ruler who rules over 25 years.

Then they can be problematic. In my southern Italy game I needed the HRE to be unstable so I could claim north Italy.

Basically had to plot or assassinate emperorors until they ejected a child. Then it was usually chaos.

One time they basically had a succession crisis for 5 decades. It was a super long civil war. Perfect for me to swallow their independent realms.

So you could try that not sure if any mods that can be done

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

HRE does need something that helps them stagger into their historical slump.

 

[billt568]

Typically HRE is only stable when they have a long reigning ruler who rules over 25 years.

Then they can be problematic. In my southern Italy game I needed the HRE to be unstable so I could claim north Italy.

Basically had to plot or assassinate emperorors until they ejected a child. Then it was usually chaos.

One time they basically had a succession crisis for 5 decades. It was a super long civil war. Perfect for me to swallow their independent realms.

So you could try that not sure if any mods that can be done

I have about 400 hours into this game, and I have never seen anything worse than a burst of rebellions because a leader is excommunicated or is gluttonous or something, and they are always swiftly crushed by an iron hand. Sometimes Provence or something breaks free, but they are all brought back into the fold eventually.

 

[DisgruntledLemming]

I think what the game needs is to have the dukes in the HRE fighting more often. Or make nobles less enthusiastic to increase crown authority for larger kingdoms/empires. Or maybe make the Pope more involved in holding back the HRE, basically kind of a "Stop right there"! Function so to speak.

 

[NezzeOne]

I think what the game needs is to have the dukes in the HRE fighting more often. Or make nobles less enthusiastic to increase crown authority for larger kingdoms/empires. Or maybe make the Pope more involved in holding back the HRE, basically kind of a "Stop right there"! Function so to speak.

"Stop right there, Imperial scum! You have violated papal law! Buy an indulgence or serve your penance. All of your bishops are now forfeit."

 

[vitek69]

I have about 400 hours into this game, and I have never seen anything worse than a burst of rebellions because a leader is excommunicated or is gluttonous or something, and they are always swiftly crushed by an iron hand. Sometimes Provence or something breaks free, but they are all brought back into the fold eventually.

I agree with you, everyone who miraculously breaks free is inevitably brought back within a couple of years. Though to be honest I haven't seen the HRE to expand much either.

A little off-topic question: How historically accurate is it for the HRE to be a single, consolidated state like it is represented in the game? I always assumed the emperors (with a couple of exceptions) had little real power.

 

[Melange_Thief]

I did see the HRE completely and permanently shatter in exactly one game.

It happened after I installed a Muslim on the throne, and he lost to one of those high-decadence revolts.

So, yeah, the HRE definitely needs something to tone down its unity. Maybe it should be harder to get the votes for Crown Authority, or the Pope should be more willing to excommunicate Emperor-level titles.

 

[DisgruntledLemming]

I agree with you, everyone who miraculously breaks free is inevitably brought back within a couple of years. Though to be honest I haven't seen the HRE to expand much either.

A little off-topic question: How historically accurate is it for the HRE to be a single, consolidated state like it is represented in the game? I always assumed the emperors (with a couple of exceptions) had little real power.

Opposite of history. Emperors used to have some power, and some had much power, but by the game's end, it was more or less a small confederation of independent nations that ran themselves however they felt like. Unlike this one, where they achieve absolute crown authority and go marching across Europe.

As for you not seeing HRE expansions, all it needs is for the also-ridiculously ahistorical Fatimid invasion of Toulouse, and for Spain to fall to the Muslims. Soon, you will see the Empire stretching from Gilbraltar to the Baltic.

 

[Sir Tornado]

So the HRE and its doomstack mechanics are really bothering me, to the point where my history obsession is making it hard to play. Does anyone know of a mod or means to make it a loose confederation with a titular title that is voted on by the 5 electors? Or a way to make raising crown authority about 500x harder? Or maybe always reset CA down a notch when a new ruler of the HRE is elected? Like when Henry V died, the Salians were out, and it basically was a free for all for until Frederick and Henry VI, and when they died the crown authority dropped again. EU3 was perfect in how it handled the HRE, but in most of my games it becomes a consolidated state that ends up in circular wars crushing tuscan independent at high or absolute authority.

And no, I dont want CK2+, its just too big and bloated now for my taste. I like the vanilla game, just hate HRE mechanics.

This used to bother me when I first started playing. Just put a condtion: NOT = { title = e_hre } in crown_laws.txt file in the conditions required to increase crown authority. HRE will be stuck on Autonomous Vassals (Or Limited Crown authority, your choice)

As far as having Electors as stipulated in Golden Bull of 1356 is concerned, I don't think there is any way currently of doing this. Hopefully, they will release a DLC for this at some point in future...

 

[DisgruntledLemming]

Maybe elective succession could be further refined by adding in, "German Elective" and "Scandinavian Elective" so to speak, (no culture requirements, that's just silly imho). One where only certain dukes/kings can elect, and one where all dukes/kings can elect, in a sense.

 

[billt568]

A little off-topic question: How historically accurate is it for the HRE to be a single, consolidated state like it is represented in the game? I always assumed the emperors (with a couple of exceptions) had little real power.

Aside from Henry IV, Henry VI, and Frederick Barbarossa, who were probably at Medium Crown Authority (which they raised themselves and which ticked down right after them), from the Carolingians to the 30 Years War it was pretty much limited/autonomous vassals. I would go so far as to say the 30 Years War was in CK2 parlance A War to Lower Crown Authority with religious overtones. Hell, after glancing at the Bohemian Kingdom wiki, it seems as though they were exempt from ALL participation in the empire (including levies) except for imperial councils where they chose the next emperor, although they were nominal allies.

Granted under the Hapsburgs it became an autocracy of sorts (less so for northern europe and prussian spheres), but Im reading Iron Kingdom, a history of Prussia right now, and even then, despite Prussia's Calvinist leanings, the relationship between the elector and the crown was one of "you support my expansion in pomerania and ducal prussia and magdeburg, ill support your marriage to X and not complain if you send some troops to fight against the dutch. No harm no foul". Of course, this is way out of CK2's scope.

Fact is, Empire level crown authority should tick down 2 slots every time a new emperor comes to power, unless some massive decision is taken ala EU3's HRE law line, which probably couldnt be accomplished until the 1600's if you werent powergaming.

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

Maybe elective succession could be further refined by adding in, "German Elective" and "Scandinavian Elective" so to speak, (no culture requirements, that's just silly imho). One where only certain dukes/kings can elect, and one where all dukes/kings can elect, in a sense.

Or the power of the vote could be tallied like the percentage of the De Jure realm you hold, excluding the highest title (the one being voted on). Say there are 500 holdings in the realm, the 5 Dukes hold 50,50, 75, 75, 100, the Emperor also has Duchies / Kingdoms he personally holds count as part of his holdings for this election, which let him control about 100 holdings let's say, and the rest of the 50 holdings are under independent counts.

Counts don't get a vote. Ever. So out of 450 available "seats" represented by the holdings, you'd have the important dukes being more important (i.e. their vote counts more), rather than one duke one vote going on in normal elective AFAIK

Weighted Elective, maybe

 

[whosthebestcop]

I have about 400 hours into this game, and I have never seen anything worse than a burst of rebellions because a leader is excommunicated or is gluttonous or something, and they are always swiftly crushed by an iron hand. Sometimes Provence or something breaks free, but they are all brought back into the fold eventually.

It is all luck or chance I guess. I've seen huge succession wars only a handful of times. Those are the wars that can go on for decades. The independence wars are either crushed or if they win independence HRE declares war as soon as the Truce is up. I've seen some really small Italian minors win independence just because HRE never sent troops down there.

But the succession cb wars, and dispose liege wars can go on for a long time because even if rulers on both sides die the war continues. It just rarely happens. And as soon as the war is over HRE is back together either current liege won or new liege is now in control.

 

[Lwantssugar]

It is all luck or chance I guess. I've seen huge succession wars only a handful of times. Those are the wars that can go on for decades. The independence wars are either crushed or if they win independence HRE declares war as soon as the Truce is up. I've seen some really small Italian minors win independence just because HRE never sent troops down there.

But the succession cb wars, and dispose liege wars can go on for a long time because even if rulers on both sides die the war continues. It just rarely happens. And as soon as the war is over HRE is back together either current liege won or new liege is now in control.

the independence thing only happens if its inside the de jure borders of the HRE, in 1066 all of its Italian dukes and counts arent a de jure part of the empire, meaning if someone (probably Florence) waited until there were a few other wars that the Emperor was already in and then declared independence the Italians would have a much easier time comparted to someone like Bavaria. I did this and the HRE never declared war on me ever again and by the time they did I was a massive blob myself

though it does need something to reflect the low authority most emperors had

 

[Tempestra]

One idea I had is for the HRE to begin, not as a single state, but as a bunch of independent states. There'd still be a Holy Roman Emperor but he wouldn't be able to demand taxes or command levies, and he would have to rely on personal good relations to get any of his de jure vassals to join him. If he managed to become their de facto liege, through persuasion or violence, that would simply represent the duke (or whatever) agreeing to respect the Imperial title as substantial, not honorary. It would put an end to the HRE doomstacks, too, while retaining the ability of the various de jure vassals to vote on Imperial laws and appoint Emperors.

I think this could also work for France. If I was less lazy, I'd try modding it in myself and seeing how it went.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

One idea I had is for the HRE to begin, not as a single state, but as a bunch of independent states. There'd still be a Holy Roman Emperor but he wouldn't be able to demand taxes or command levies, and he would have to rely on personal good relations to get any of his de jure vassals to join him. If he managed to become their de facto liege, through persuasion or violence, that would simply represent the duke (or whatever) agreeing to respect the Imperial title as substantial, not honorary. It would put an end to the HRE doomstacks, too, while retaining the ability of the various de jure vassals to vote on Imperial laws and appoint Emperors.

I think this could also work for France. If I was less lazy, I'd try modding it in myself and seeing how it went.

Am still work on my Romzug was answer to this question, making him king of Romans instead of the Kaiser, he first must crown by the pope, before he gain full imperial inventure. My only problem is right try to figure out how destory title on death. I was work lack of trait system, if king does not have the trait the title is destroy.

 

[billt568]

One idea I had is for the HRE to begin, not as a single state, but as a bunch of independent states. There'd still be a Holy Roman Emperor but he wouldn't be able to demand taxes or command levies, and he would have to rely on personal good relations to get any of his de jure vassals to join him. If he managed to become their de facto liege, through persuasion or violence, that would simply represent the duke (or whatever) agreeing to respect the Imperial title as substantial, not honorary. It would put an end to the HRE doomstacks, too, while retaining the ability of the various de jure vassals to vote on Imperial laws and appoint Emperors.

I think this could also work for France. If I was less lazy, I'd try modding it in myself and seeing how it went.

I like what you are saying, but you can simplify it to making "Holy Rman Emperor" a Titular title that has no vassals and making the title of HRE electable by DeJure Dukes of the Empire (or primogeniture via an expensive decision). However, the holder of the titular HRE is permanently allied to all independent entities in the Empire de jure, and based on your relationship with them, you can call them to your wars. I really wish I was capable of modding that.

 

[WankoStankins]

Pssht you're not a history addict if you don't quit playing ck2 within just a few minutes in after noticing all the flaws.

 

[Ruwaard]

So the HRE and its doomstack mechanics are really bothering me, to the point where my history obsession is making it hard to play. Does anyone know of a mod or means to make it a loose confederation with a titular title that is voted on by the 5 electors? Or a way to make raising crown authority about 500x harder? Or maybe always reset CA down a notch when a new ruler of the HRE is elected? Like when Henry V died, the Salians were out, and it basically was a free for all for until Frederick and Henry VI, and when they died the crown authority dropped again. EU3 was perfect in how it handled the HRE, but in most of my games it becomes a consolidated state that ends up in circular wars crushing tuscan independent at high or absolute authority.

And no, I dont want CK2+, its just too big and bloated now for my taste. I like the vanilla game, just hate HRE mechanics.

I don't quite agree, that you want to impose the HRE formalized by the Golden Bull of Charles IV already on the empire in 1066.
It never really was a titular title either, but in CK2 there were large periods with autonomous vassals. A part of the problem is that historically some of the first imperial dynasties weren't that long lived. Regardig setting CA down a notch should apply to each kingdom and empire, which gets a new dynasty; but I disagree that it should be lowered in the HRE for each new ruler, since they should be able to raise it. Maybe a (very weak) emperor should be more likely to get an event for this, but kings should get a similar event too.
In fact the raising CA to quickly is an issues in many realms and not just the HRE.