Water shortage from off map? Big gaps in river water.

[Fox_NS_CAN]

I have been playing the Trains Scenario from Mass Transit, and the water coming down the river from off the map is very inconsistent. Rather annoying, as when the "gap" in the water passes my water pumps, the city is without water. I even tried using the Natural Disasters water tanks, but they won't supply the full city, even briefly. Must only be able to provide enough flow for nearby buildings.

Happens a lot.

I have no assets or mods enabled.

 

[MarkJohnson]

So, what I am taking away from all this is: It is a CO map, and a CO scenario, CO should fix it. I have beaten the scenario, so I can fiddle with it I suppose.

I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with it. It is just likely game mechanic as with the rest of the game. It also is more than a scenario as it is a new map from Mass-Transit. So the map is a standard game map, not a special scenario map. I think it is called Arid Plains or something.

If they wanted limited water from the river, it should be low all the time, not huge dry spots passing through. Not realistic. Also, if it was limited water, "x" pumps spaced out should take out the same amount as "x" pumps together.

Well, if you place pumps along the river evenly, then it lowers it a tiny bit at a time ( an inch or two), but if you place them all in one spot it lowers in several feet in one spot. So there is a big difference. You can see it if you place them along the river evenly, you see the water level going down little by little. Same with removing all pumps and placing water towers on land. The riving is at the very top of the banks and even floods parts of your network.

The wave is weird though. It's like the Natural Disaster DLC may have altered the water behavior for tsunamis or something and it creates flood wave effect. That's my guess anyway.

You're either being polite or have a lower standard than me.

I think your standards are just too high. My cities are much worse looking than yours, but I get a surprisingly large amount of compliments.

But did you let this current save run at highspeed for a few minutes to watch the tidal waves disappear?

Maybe if you had a save when it was at it's worst? It might be easier to diagnose. An altered version is kind of hard to diagnose as you can't see the full effect. But the things you did do seemed to have fixed it if you let it run long enough to ride the wave out.

 

[barrygreybeard]

I don't think that wave is there by design at all. Its a scenario and I managed to complete it before that phenomenon appeared so it has no effect on the scenario itself, just when you continue to pay the map. It is a design fault, made by someone who does not understand the water mechanics in the game, and there are a few on other maps CO have created. After playing the game for a while I think we are now the experts at playing the game, CO may have created it but have no idea how to play! Have you seen some their embarrassing twitch feeds

 

[MarkJohnson]

The scenario has nothing to do with the wave. I agree the wave isn't there by design, I believe the wave is a cause and effect of the water mechanics. A scenario is just a list of victory conditions and has zero effects on the map at all. You can play that map at any time. It is the Arid Plains.

I don't necessarily think it's a design fault. I think it is just another way to play the game. i.e. not relying on water pumps every game and force you to use water towers. I mean the water spouts supply x amount of water, water pumps consume x amount of water. If you consume more water than it is supplying then you'll lower the water level. If you clump water pumps together in one spot, then it will drain it dry rather quick. You can see in most maps where they add water respawn points along the river, so they are aware of reversing the water flow, or even running them dry as some rivers are very small.

As for the wave. I'm not sure. I haven't had this happen before, but I've never ran a river, this large, dry before. I've caused the river to reverse flow from too many pumps in one spot. But I've learned long ago to not clump pumps together. I'm just guessing that with Natural Disasters than they may have altered water behavior somehow for tsunamis to work the way they want them to work. Like causing tidal waves. Maybe this is just a mini tidal wave? Maybe this has always been the case, and we've just never hit a situation like this before? But this map was made after Natural Disasters.

I play with disasters disabled. I find they happen too often for me and I get stuck in a perpetual repair mode. I do play at x3 speed though and larger than 9-tiles most of the time when I do play.

 

[barrygreybeard]

Yes I am well aware of what a scenario is. I had not come across this map before and thought it was created just for that scenario, hence my thoughts that if you could solve the scenario before this phenomenon appeared than it didnt really matter. If its one of COs maps then just another one where the design lets it down!

 

[MarkJohnson]

Yeah, I was thinking maybe you thought it was a special map for the scenario after I posted.

But I don't really see it as a let down so much. I mean if you tried that in real life you'd get the same result, or worse. Well, other than the wave. I think the wave part was just throwing us off. I mean all rivers in the game will do the same thing, minus the wave of course. Although, the wave may be a new issue to contend with if it was changed with ND.

 

[ristosal]

But I don't really see it as a let down so much. I mean if you tried that in real life you'd get the same result, or worse. Well, other than the wave. I think the wave part was just throwing us off. I mean all rivers in the game will do the same thing, minus the wave of course. Although, the wave may be a new issue to contend with if it was changed with ND.

I doubt the water physics were changed with ND, it's probably an interplay of water spawners and river topography ("boxy" basin). The most useful thing right now would be to locate the water spawners with Extra Landscaping Tools.

 

[Fox_NS_CAN]

I don't necessarily think it's a design fault. I think it is just another way to play the game. i.e. not relying on water pumps every game and force you to use water towers. I mean the water spouts supply x amount of water, water pumps consume x amount of water. If you consume more water than it is supplying then you'll lower the water level. If you clump water pumps together in one spot, then it will drain it dry rather quick.

How does a dry spot go by? The game does not appear to have fluctuating water demand.

If supply equals x and pumps remove x, there will simply be no water running out at the end. It does not matter if all the pumps are in one spot or not, if they consume it all, it will just be gone.

That's not what I am seeing. I am seeing weird zig-zags in the river, and suddenly no water. Then more water.

 

[MarkJohnson]

I doubt the water physics were changed with ND, it's probably an interplay of water spawners and river topography ("boxy" basin). The most useful thing right now would be to locate the water spawners with Extra Landscaping Tools.

As I already stated, there are only two water spawners at the edge of the map. There are none along the river at all. You can use Extra Landscaping tools to see and I think add water spawners if you wanted.

But topography can have an affect, but I don't see it causing that much, other than the twisty water currents.

How does a dry spot go by? The game does not appear to have fluctuating water demand.

The water spot goes by as water is flowing toward the ocean. It fluctuates, just not very smoothly. If you watch the dry spot flow to the ocean it slowly fills in and all but disappears when it reaches the ocean.

If supply equals x and pumps remove x, there will simply be no water running out at the end. It does not matter if all the pumps are in one spot or not, if they consume it all, it will just be gone.

If they are equal, it will stop the flow of water at the end of the last pump as you will have used it all up. But when you use it up, it stops using the water and the water starts flowing again because water is no longer being consumed. Then when the water moves downstream again, from the empty pumps not pumping water, water will slowly get consumed again and your city will stop water demands.

That's not what I am seeing. I am seeing weird zig-zags in the river, and suddenly no water. Then more water.

Yes, like I said, it seems to be having a deathwave type effect in the water. probably from the varying pumps along the river. But it seems to have some weird chain reaction and causes it to happen upstream, like some kind of undertow.

But if you remove the pumps, the thing flows great, or if you let the current save run on its own then it will end the wave and flow fine if you don't change anything.

But I never experienced this wave when I had it in the early days of the game.

I take it you don't have a previous save before you made all of these changes to better test and monitor the wave effect?

 

[ristosal]

Yes, like I said, it seems to be having a deathwave type effect in the water. probably from the varying pumps along the river. But it seems to have some weird chain reaction and causes it to happen upstream, like some kind of undertow.

But if you remove the pumps, the thing flows great, or if you let the current save run on its own then it will end the wave and flow fine if you don't change anything.

But I never experienced this wave when I had it in the early days of the game.

I take it you don't have a previous save before you made all of these changes to better test and monitor the wave effect?

This same phenomenon is visible in The Dust Bowl map downstream from the start square before you've built a single thing, so I can't say this theory is valid. Something causes random and sometimes notable speed differences in the current, and the water eventually starts building back upon itself.

 

[MarkJohnson]

I don't see any Dust Bowl map? Maybe a workshop item? But user generated workshop is a whole different story.

 

[metacritical]

The Dust Bowl came with Natural Disasters

 

[MarkJohnson]

I must be blind then, I see no maps or no scenario labeled The Dust Bowl.

Doh, I see it now. I think I need new glasses. Maybe eyeballs too.

I loaded it and sure enough it had the dry spots at launch of new map. I let it cycle three times and it kept coming back about the same. Slightly different each time, but it always had a major dry spot or two each time it happened.

 

[MarkJohnson]

I seen a video yesterday that has issues with cycling water, I noticed it was cycling with the day/night cycle. I thought that might be the issue, but the dust bowl map is empty and does it.

Also, the dust bowl map doesn't even have a water spawner on the river at all. The water spawners are out in the bays.

 

[Sinxar]

First time i've played on this map and seen it before I started building and assumed it would just go away over time. But no the void keeps appearing and flowing up the river. Maybe we will get lucky and CO will look at this thread and work out a fix.

 

[AndrewT]

FYI I've logged a bug report on this in the Dust Bowl map, as I was able to duplicate it easily.

 

[barrygreybeard]

thanks AT!

 

[Fox_NS_CAN]

Glad to hear a bug report was logged.

I just wanted to add, that while I still look forward to it being fixed, in the meantime if anyone is having a problem with it, I have found a workaround fix for it.

Dig a deep hole where the water pumps are located. When the dry spot passes, it will leave water in the holes. If they are of sufficient capacity, they will last long enough for the water to return.

 

[bugi74]

As it was only slightly touched on this thread, I can add the bit of info I read somewhere, about making rivers in map editor, that certain river shapes and/or cross-section shapes tend to create the waving phenomena. One of the root causes is "wrong" water physics, which ends up having positive feedback loops, creating oscillation. It can be even worse when some player-made structures affect the flow, especially if that structure's effect can change over time (e.g. dam when it is still stabilizing after being built). Or the interplay of a dam and a water source.

I run in to this issue with the very first map I tried to make with the editor, having a relatively straight river oscillating already in the editor It took quite a few non-natural looking changes to make it stable. And it is not only the rivers that oscillate, but also e.g. the interplay of ocean (edge water source/sinks) and large changes in water flow (huge dams on a river with large flow).

In addition to the two maps mentioned, the (only) official map I have been playing so far (Islands) has some waving in its rivers, but as the rivers in it are so deep, they rarely (if ever) show full dry spots. In it, the waving mostly causes issues with flooding or dam electricity generation.

I'd make an educated guess and say the issue for the two mentioned maps is the "wrong" water physics, combined with the map having the rivers (and water sources) done in a way that are susceptible to waving effect.


As a possible way to reduce those waves (without CO fixing the map and/or the water physics), if you have room on the map, you can add one (or both) of two kinds of changes:
1) A somewhat large side-path in the river that is about as long as the distance between dry spots / wave peaks, but starts at half that distance before a dry spot, ends at dry spot. A wave will split at the start point, travel forward along both paths.. at the time when a dry spot reaches the end of the side-path, the previous wave's peak comes out from the side-path, thus averaging out the dry and wave peak (with some sideways effects remaining). In order to keep the total flow somewhat unchanged, the original river could/should be narrowed roughly as much as the side path has cross-section, but this may be just tried out. (If narrowing the main river, total buildable area will not reduce as much.)
2) Suitably large side lake from the river. It should be roughly shaped as a sector of a circle or a cone, with the tighter end attached to river, and have radius or length outwards from the river of about 1/4th the distance between wave peaks (or much larger 3/4th). In this case a wave spills into the side lake, travels to the other end, reflects back, and half a wave period later (at river's dry point) flows back to river. The "backwalls" of the lake may need some adjustments to make the reflection suitable (sharp walls make the reflection sharp, smooth beach smooth the reflection). Or the backwall can be arranged in different distances, sectors reflecting the wave back at slightly different times, though this may also lead to changing the reflection angle, needing tweaks in the way the side-lake is attached to the river (e.g. two different points). Note that the side cone/sector does not need to be purely perpendicular to the river, slightly angled orientation should work, too.

Both solutions will likely need quite a bit of trial and error to make them work right, but I've used a smaller version of the side-path solution once to "steal" some of wave peaks and spread them over longer period, thus attenuating dual-dam waving (different cause, but just as annoying) much faster than what they would stabilize without side-paths. (After the river got stabilized, the side-paths could be removed, but for the case in this issue, which is caused by the game physics/river shapes, the solution needs to be left there for as long as the causes exist.)

Naturally, these solutions do not (usually) affect the problem upriver.

With a bit of creative touch, both solutions can be made somewhat natural looking, but not fully so, and they both need some extra space.

 

[OptimaForma]

You can place a water source with a mod and equalise the flow. When loadign the city, the waterspawns will blast out a burst of water. I Always hated this feature because it drains CPU power when you need it most. Anyhow, the disruption you are seeing is the water spawn bursting to keep the water level equal. Also ground level of the river bed appears to be higher then the spawn, so double trouble

 

[bugi74]

You can place a water source with a mod and equalise the flow. When loadign the city, the waterspawns will blast out a burst of water. I Always hated this feature because it drains CPU power when you need it most. Anyhow, the disruption you are seeing is the water spawn bursting to keep the water level equal. Also ground level of the river bed appears to be higher then the spawn, so double trouble

If there is indeed such burst of water at load (not just at start of a city), that would also be good to be fixed, too.

But, that initial burst would explain a wave or few at the begin a session, but the waving that I have seen has always started somewhere along the visible part of the river (not coming from the "outside"), and the waving keeps going semi-randomly even hour+ after starting / loading a city. So, that theory doesn't explain the cases I have seen. Also, while playing with the map editor, I was able to tweak the ground at the river's start (a "lake" of sorts) to create a stable initial flow into the river, but a short distance downstream, a small wave occasionally starts, and the small waves almost always start to grow and grow and grow until you get those tsunami level waves (an obvious problem with the physics simulation, as normally waves that are not being boosted by wind get lower (and longer) over time and distance). So, the bursting would not explain all cases.