Wasteland, Eurocentrism, and a petition for an expansion focusing on Africa

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BritNavFan

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What can be done in mods that only really needs to appeal to its creator (and is at best going to appeal to a niche group of players), and what can be done in a main game that has to appeal to a much broader base, are essentially two worlds.
That's a truism. But your claim that X "is at best going to appeal to a niche group of players" - you have no evidence for that. You and Paradox have never tested that. You're just claiming it as true with no evidence whatsoever and with no attempt whatsoever to attain evidence.

The one empirical test that has been (completely unconsciously) made of this happened when the "land_morale" factor was added to the game. That change, which was made to make battles between armies of similar tech levels work better, also had the side effect of greatly magnifying the relative advantage of Europe. And the playerbase showed no sign of noticing the difference.

Now it's possible that the changes I made to my mod would be hated by the player base. I've absolutely no doubt that some of the changes that I've make to my mod would be hated by large sections of the player base. But this particular one? My change basically restores the game balance between European and non-European countries to what it was before the land_morale factor was introduced, while keeping the advantages that the land_morale factor introduced. Based on the player reaction to introducing the land_morale modifier, I doubt that the player base would notice the change had been made.

And implicit in your post is the claim that the relative advantage incidentally given to European tech countries by the introduction of the land_morale modifier is the difference between EU IV being a mainstream game and EU IV being a niche game. Seriously??? I don't think you've actually thought that through. And, if you seriously think that's true, why do you think that using universal AI westernization as a really, really clumsy way of restoring the military balance between European tech and non-European tech countries to what it was before the introduction of the land_morale modifier is a good idea? If restoring the Euro-non Euro balance to pre-land_morale values would turn the game into a niche game, how is restoring that balance by means of near-universal westernization a good idea? By your own logic, universal westernization would turn EU IV into a niche game.

Which it clearly doesn't. Hence your logic is flawed. I see no evidence that anyone at Paradox or associated with it has ever given this issue any serious thought. (This is consistent with the hypothesis that Paradox staff like near-universal AI westernization for reasons unrelated to game balance. Because if you seriously thought that universal AI westernization was a poor solution, it's not hard at all to find alternatives.)

Game-wise, in my opinion, you need a tech system that's simple, that makes it so a one-step progress in tech is a large advantage over your neighbors of similar tech group, and that advantages Europe

And there are many possible algorithms for combat resolution that would meet those specifications - the current one is far from unique. It's simply the easiest to implement. It assumes that the combat stats (infantry_shock, cavalry_shock, etc.) have to be multipliers; that the algorithm has to be composed of multipliers and only multipliers. But that's by no means true - for instance, you could reduce the differences between the multipliers at different tech levels, and add a term to the combat algorithm that gives a flat penalty to the army with the better tech and a flat penalty to the army with the lower tech. That would keep the importance of having high land tech (which is hardly necessary; even with the reduced effect of land tech in my house rules maximizing land tech is not a "strategic decision" it's a no-brainer), keep the advantage of European countries over other European countries with slightly lower land tech, it would still keep the advantage of European tech over non-European tech countries, but if you plug the right values in it would reduce the advantage of European tech over non-European tech countries to the same extent that near universal AI westernization does.

That solution took me 20 minutes to write down, less to think of.
 
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Chronicler

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That's a broader than usual definition of Sahara, which flies in the face of traditional eco-regions, but we'll allow it for the time being, so I can point out a flaw in your argument:

If Timbuktu, northernmost major city of Mali, is at the southern edge of the Sahara...the logical inference is that the other cities of Mali (Gao, Djenné, Kangaba, Niani...), further south, are very likely past that edge. Not that all of Mali is in the Sahara.

In fact, since we're quoting the Wikipedia articles, allow me to quote from the third paragraph of the one about Djenné. :



I may also point out (and will) that Niani and Kangaba (again: demonstrably the heartland of the Mali empire, whether you like it or not) are, of course, south of Djenné.

That would, it seem, put much of Mali (and the heartland, and the capital) in sub-Saharan Africa.

Well, it's not entirely true that Timbuktu was the northernmost major city of the Mali Empire, I mean the map I provided was just in 1350, the empire expanded after that, it also spanned far west into the Sahara, let's remember here that Djenne was conquered by the Mali Empire after Timbuktu and Gao with the help of Tuareg cavalry and other things.

The early version of the Mali Empire mostly spread over Mauretania, Mali (todays states), and a small part of northern Guinea as said. Ipso facto mostly Saharan. Then later it expanded south. One of the earlier conquest was Djenne.

And that a city is a capital doesn't mean it's the most important city in the Empire.

Also, I know that Djenne is sub-saharan as you point out, I just want to point out that it was a later conquest.

Also, Timbuktu being in the Sahara is not a broader definition of the Sahara...
 
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imperial.

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I Agree completely!! Eu4 and you should check out my suggestion post before making Mare Nostrum! I have a New System for Africa that is worth taking a look here. Number 6 to be exact.
 
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Evie HJ

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Yes, Timbuktu being in the Sahara *IS* a broader definition of the Sahara. Please look at the vegetation map above, again, which clearly shows the Sahel stretching north of Timbuktu. Thus, not the Sahara. Likewise, yes, Timbuktu was (along with Walata) the northernmost major city of the empire. They had control of mines and trade routes further north, but these were neither major cities nor part of the heartland (despite your best efforts to treat them as such).

And no, Mali did not start in Mauretania. That's Ghana, the preceding empire, which had long since collapsed by the time Mali rose to power (further south than Ghana's old heartland). When exactly Mali annexed Walata and neighboring Mauretanian trade towns is unclear ; but they were a later annexation, that much is clear. Sundiata started with the Kangaba/Niani area, that is also clear.

When exactly Djenné was conquered (if it was ; some versions of history including the Tarrikh-al-Sudan have it remaining an enclave within Malian territory) is, as far as any of the sources I have found can say, unknown. I'm thus not sure what incident you refer to here. Perhaps the 1473 Songhai conquest, or the 1599 Malian siege (during the last attempted resurgence of Mali), as these are the two major battles for Djenné that are dated. However, the weight of evidence is firmly on the side of Mali having reached Jenné (whether they conquered it or not) long before either of these.

imperial - your system manages the feat of being more "It's all about Europe" eurocentrism than even what's currently in place. I would not want it anywhere near the game, personally.
 
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Chronicler

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Yes, Timbuktu being in the Sahara *IS* a broader definition of the Sahara. Please look at the vegetation map above, again, which clearly shows the Sahel stretching north of Timbuktu. Thus, not the Sahara. Likewise, yes, Timbuktu was (along with Walata) the northernmost major city of the empire. They had control of mines and trade routes further north, but these were neither major cities nor part of the heartland (despite your best efforts to treat them as such).

And no, Mali did not start in Mauretania. That's Ghana, the preceding empire, which had long since collapsed by the time Mali rose to power (further south than Ghana's old heartland). When exactly Mali annexed Walata and neighboring Mauretanian trade towns is unclear ; but they were a later annexation, that much is clear. Sundiata started with the Kangaba/Niani area, that is also clear.

When exactly Djenné was conquered (if it was ; some versions of history including the Tarrikh-al-Sudan have it remaining an enclave within Malian territory) is, as far as any of the sources I have found can say, unknown. I'm thus not sure what incident you refer to here. Perhaps the 1473 Songhai conquest, or the 1599 Malian siege (during the last attempted resurgence of Mali), as these are the two major battles for Djenné that are dated. However, the weight of evidence is firmly on the side of Mali having reached Jenné (whether they conquered it or not) long before either of these.

imperial - your system manages the feat of being more "It's all about Europe" eurocentrism than even what's currently in place. I would not want it anywhere near the game, personally.

Once again, I never claimed the Mali Empire started there, I just said it was more of a Saharan empire than anything else before it started to expand southwards.

And no, I don't want it to be only about Europe, I mean tribal armies have defeated western armies, due to both numbers and western armies making a mess of it, like the Battle of Isandlwana though that one is after the EU IV timespan. I just don't want it to be unrealistic, like having to engage the navies of formerly tribal nations or something like that. The only nations that historically westernized were Eastern European and maybe Turkey.
 
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Evie HJ

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That last sentence was addressed to imperial and his proposed Africa mechanism (which I find terrible, as it reduces African states to mere target of competitions for European nations, an euro-centrist view), not you. Like I said before, I'm giving you the benefit of doubt as to why you are so deadset on not counting Mali in Sub-Saharan Africa.

As for the rest, I'm afraid your interpretation of "North then South" as a deliberate strategic choice to capture the more powerful North then use it to crush the weaker south is not supported by history. While Mali (according to some sources) did have a later phase of southern expansion along the edge of the rainforest, you have the cause and effect backward : their southern conquest were an attempt to make up for losses in the North, which cut Mali off from the horse trade that had allowed them to maintain a large cavalry force (note: a large cavalry force of their own people, not hired Tuareg cavalry).

The notion that they relied on Tuareg cavalry seems entirely unsupported by any source that I can find. Certainly, by the time of their southern expansion,. the Tuareg were openly at war with Mali, and they were the reasons Mali was losing the north in the first place. Most evidence has Mali maintaining its own cavalry, not hiring Tuaregs to fill the role.

That said, since you're fond of Wiki, this is their definition of what make a country Sub-Saharan or not :

Politically, it consists of all African countries that are fully or partially located south of the Sahara (excluding Sudan, even though Sudan sits in the Eastern portion of the Sahara desert).

(bolding mine).

That...would seem to include Mali, no matter how you cut it.
 

Chronicler

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That last sentence was addressed to imperial and his proposed Africa mechanism (which I find terrible, as it reduces African states to mere target of competitions for European nations, an euro-centrist view), not you. Like I said before, I'm giving you the benefit of doubt as to why you are so deadset on not counting Mali in Sub-Saharan Africa.

As for the rest, I'm afraid your interpretation of "North then South" as a deliberate strategic choice to capture the more powerful North then use it to crush the weaker south is not supported by history. While Mali (according to some sources) did have a later phase of southern expansion along the edge of the rainforest, you have the cause and effect backward : their southern conquest were an attempt to make up for losses in the North, which cut Mali off from the horse trade that had allowed them to maintain a large cavalry force (note: a large cavalry force of their own people, not hired Tuareg cavalry).

The notion that they relied on Tuareg cavalry seems entirely unsupported by any source that I can find. Certainly, by the time of their southern expansion,. the Tuareg were openly at war with Mali, and they were the reasons Mali was losing the north in the first place. Most evidence has Mali maintaining its own cavalry, not hiring Tuaregs to fill the role.

That said, since you're fond of Wiki, this is their definition of what make a country Sub-Saharan or not :



(bolding mine).

That...would seem to include Mali, no matter how you cut it.

"I'm giving you the benefit of doubt as to why you are so deadset on not counting Mali in Sub-Saharan Africa"

On the first sentence, I never said I counted Mali as sub-saharan or saharan, I just wrote it was mostly Saharan during it's inception and existance (maybe not very late, but still), which is why I also count it as Saharan, it's most important cities like Timbuktu etc, were Saharan, Gao is a borderline case, Djenne was a conquest after these two.

And if you read up on the Mali Empire military you should know at least Tuareg was a part of it, as were Igbo and southern tribes etc.

And yeah, that link tells us what states are sub-saharan, but I'm obviously using it as a geographical reference.
 
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Ah,. and the Igbo now. Who, at Mali's greatest extent, still lived more than a thousand kilometer from Mali's borders.
 
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Chronicler

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That is also how feudal European states operated

"were usually equipped with large reed or animal hide shields and a stabbing spear that was called a tamba"

Bullshit that was how European feudal armies operated, Europeans would also have considered poison dishonourable. European armies were much more organized and well equipped.
 
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Ah,. and the Igbo now. Who, at Mali's greatest extent, still lived more than a thousand kilometer from Mali's borders.

Well you are right on this one, somehow I got the idea that the Dendi were an Igbo subgroup, I checked it up and I was wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that many different peoples lived within Malis Empire, whether they were Tuareg, Mandé, Arab, Fula etc
 
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Many different people lived in the empire, certainly, but the heart of the empire's military was the Manding/Mandinka/etc (it's been spelled many ways). Most sources refering the Tuareg and Mali refer to them fighting one another (which was indeed common), not fighting on the same side.
 
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Chronicler

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Many different people lived in the empire, certainly, but the heart of the empire's military was the Manding/Mandinka/etc (it's been spelled many ways). Most sources refering the Tuareg and Mali refer to them fighting one another (which was indeed common), not fighting on the same side.

Well, once again we are in a strange place, I have never suggested the Mandé was not the heart (core) of the Mali Empire, I just suggested that much of the cavalry of the Mali Empire were subjugated Tuareg.

Everything I have read suggest cavalry was a small part of the Mali Empire army, bowmen and spearmen making up the bulk of it.
 
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Evie HJ

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And everything I have read suggest that cavalry, while numerically small, were an instrumental - and Mande - part of the Malian military.

There may have been some tuaregs serving in it, but the bulk of the cavalry was made of the Mande themselves.
 
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LinusLinothorax

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#Equipment

Much of the armor, swords etc the Mali Empire did use were manufactured elsewhere. So yes, Malis armies were very tribal.
First at all, a tribe is a primitive form of political organization and says nothing about weapon technology. Many nomads also lived in tribal organizations, and still they had highly developed arms and armours.

Second, Mali had a highly structed military organization, too structured for beeing "tribal", which you appareantly use as a synonym for "primitive".

Third, Wikipedia doesn't even give a source for its claim for weapons beeing imported and i also have never heard of that before. If Malians imported anything at all it was chainmail. The rest of the equipment could of course be manufactured localy. After all, the manufacturing of iron is proven since the Nok-Culture and is assumed to developed at around 800-500 BC (C 14). Why they shouldnt be able to smelt iron wepaons on their own after almost 2000 years?
 
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