Wasteland, Eurocentrism, and a petition for an expansion focusing on Africa

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Trin Tragula

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Or like, you know, narrow habitable coastal stretches between the ocean and impassable jungle/mountainous terrain.

Very little of what's being added is in fact jungle. The Congolese states are for instance south of the jungle in the Savanna region.
Two provinces of Madagascar are indeed jungle, though arguably not in the normal sense as madagascars rain forests are quite open on ground level.
 
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Trin Tragula

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Very little of what's being added is in fact jungle. The Congolese states are for instance south of the jungle in the Savanna region.
Two provinces of Madagascar are indeed jungle, though arguably not in the normal sense as madagascars rain forests are quite open on ground level.

Yes, its not jungle, but even the non-jungle area east of the Kongo has generally inhospitable terrain, such that travel of EUIV-sized armies between Kongo and Rwanda would be virtually impossible. See Jomini's posts earlier in the thread.
 
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Demetrios

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with a quick route to India they may

How would going through the center of the continent be the "quick route"? I doubt the anyone, including the AI, would choose to conquer their way through a dozen or so countries when a single colony in the Cape region will suffice.
 
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3ishop

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It's going to be added, if you really don't like it and can't stand the addition you can always not update to the build OR make a mod to remove them.

Going to make being a Catholic colonial power even easier of course, more natives to hit for large amounts of cash and more provinces to convert.

Oh also remember the trade flow hasn't been shown.

Be interesting to see what resources they have as well.
 
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Gball

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It's going to be added, if you really don't like it and can't stand the addition you can always not update to the build OR make a mod to remove them.

Going to make being a Catholic colonial power even easier of course, more natives to hit for large amounts of cash and more provinces to convert.

Oh also remember the trade flow hasn't been shown.

Be interesting to see what resources they have as well.

If I had to guess, trade flow would certainly lead to the current Kongo and Zimbabwe node.

So this is even more money for a colonial Spain (which is insanely much already).
 

3ishop

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If I had to guess, trade flow would certainly lead to the current Kongo and Zimbabwe node.

So this is even more money for a colonial Spain (which is insanely much already).
The tradesetup for Africa have changed as well, Zanzibar is now the coast tradenode, with three inland nodes of Kongo, Great Lakes and Zambezi leading to the coasts either west and east. This makes the Zanzibar node a hugely important tradenode for everyone along the Indian Ocean.
So it might take a tad longer for you to get the cash flowing back to Europe, slightly less easy to get a foothold on the East coast
 

TheDungen

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Eurocentrism? The game is set in the period where Europe became the centre of the world, this is why all trade flows into Europe.
Actually, that really happened in the vic2 era. Sure you could see the signs of it comming with early industrial efforts and the brittish east india company puppeteering india (note that it would not really become a part of the brittish empire until the reign of victoria).
This is the age of trading companies and of the colonial effort in the americas, nothing more, europe does not yet dominate the old world in the eu4 era.
 
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radiatoren

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Actually, that really happened in the vic2 era. Sure you could see the signs of it comming with early industrial efforts and the brittish east india company puppeteering india (note that it would not really become a part of the brittish empire until the reign of victoria).
This is the age of trading companies and of the colonial effort in the americas, nothing more, europe does not yet dominate the old world in the eu4 era.
One could argue that the arabians and to a lesser degree indians were ahead in the trade in the first part of the period. Late in the games timeperiod (1750+) you can argue that Europe starts to dominate trade.
Just go read Jomini's arguments from earlier, half the new tags, at least, have a very touchy basis at best, and ALL of them between Kongo and the Swahili coast had no practical way to interact with the coastal states at state-to-state levels.

And there are gameplay reasons aside from history to worry about this - Africa just becomes more like the rest of the world in gameplay. Instead of being more chokepoint-y, it's now more similar to the rest of the blobby world.
While there are some significant limits to how much the tribes interacted on a state-to-state level, the rivers from Kongo and inland did provide for trade to a pretty significant degree because of the well-developed mining going on inland. Besides, there are significant signs of indian beds and other east coast exclusive trade items in the Upembe-area signifying trade with the Kilwa-area too, as well as some written evidence of inland africans trading at the coast. In the 1600s and foreward some of the inland empires became rather significant in extend and provided control of trade with the coasts. Thus, while they did not interact much with the arabians or europeans, they became rather important in the 17th centure to the end of the game-period for the coastal traders.

Gameplay-wise I would wait for some of the new mechanics to be revealed. While many (like me) are for introducing these areas in the game, many of us also agree that there needs to be mechanics to limit the coastal colonizers from blobbing through central Africa. Thus, the last words haven't been said in this context.

Edit: As for the inland nations around the Victoria-lake, the terrain around them are significantly different and contact more sporadic. Still, the trade-effect is there. The most likely mythical Kitara Empire attests to that trade-influence.
 
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mcmanusaur

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There's more:

fGXlnQP.jpg


rRAeHfF.jpg


Also a new "Fetishist" religion

Yep, quite excellent. I'll probably make some minor changes in my own little map mod, but at least now we have something substantive to work with.
 

Demetrios

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Oh also remember the trade flow hasn't been shown.

Yes it has, there's a map for trade on the DD thread. There are going to be three new inland nodes that will flow out to Zanzibar and Ivory Coast.
 
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Atlantians

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How would going through the center of the continent be the "quick route"? I doubt the anyone, including the AI, would choose to conquer their way through a dozen or so countries when a single colony in the Cape region will suffice.

Which is itself a main reason why the Europeans never colonized inland until the late 1800s.

Why bother?
 
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Sol717

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One could argue that the arabians and to a lesser degree indians were ahead in the trade in the first part of the period. Late in the games timeperiod (1750+) you can argue that Europe starts to dominate trade.
The reason why this isn't represented in-game is because it would require too much processing power to implement a dynamic trade system as in EU3 with the fancy animations and graphics the EU4 system has. The system had to be further simplified in Art of War as the map was expanded. We will probably have to wait for Paradox to add proper multi-core support if we want such a mechanic to appear in EU5 or any other Paradox game, and even then, that may not be enough to propel Paradox over this technical barrier.
 
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Red_warning

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During the EU4 time frame era China, and, although slightly less so, the Mughals, had a much bigger impact on the world, including Europe, than Europe.

Sorry but China and the Mughals can't hold a candle to the, for mankind immensely important, scientific breakthroughs made in Europe during the enlightenment. More scientific discoveries were probably made 1700 - 1800 in Europe and its colonial off-shots than in the entire scientific history of China. And then there is philosophy too, with social ideas that affect us even to this day on a daily basis...

And if are talking purely about political relevance, the only continent where China had relevancy in everyday politics of nations during the EU era was in Asia. On every other continent, Europe had a stronger presence. And later during the era, Europe became more relevant to many Asian nations as well, perhaps even the majority.
 
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paulatreides0

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Sorry but China and the Mughals can't hold a candle to the, for mankind immensely important, scientific breakthroughs made in Europe during the enlightenment. More scientific discoveries were probably made 1700 - 1800 in Europe and its colonial off-shots than in the entire scientific history of China. And then there is philosophy too, with social ideas that affect us even to this day on a daily basis...

And if are talking purely about political relevance, the only continent where China had relevancy in everyday politics of nations during the EU era was in Asia. On every other continent, Europe had a stronger presence. And later during the era, Europe became more relevant to many Asian nations as well, perhaps even the majority.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Europe didn't become important until the mid-to-late 1850s. Even at the beginning of the 1800s, China far eclipsed Europe in it's entirety. China was by and far the largest producer goods on the planet and had a comparatively modern army capable of challenging European powers with ease. The majority of the world's trade goods came from China or were channeled through China for pretty much the entirety of the period. As was much knowledge and science, as China was one of the world's main innovators until the late 18th and 19th centuries.

What really killed China's position as the greatest world power was the industrial revolution which allowed Europe to compete with China in terms of production.

The Mughals as well, far outclassed any nation in Europe, and they fell more to internal issues than anything else.

Yes, in the long run Europe turned out to be "more important" (although even this was itself after centuries of feeding off of China and knowledge passed down through trade and the silk road), but most of that didn't even take place until nearing the very end/just after the EUIV time period.

EDIT: meant mid-to-late 1800s. But the general point stands.
 
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BBMorti

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You have no idea what you are talking about.

Europe didn't become important until the mid-to-late 1850s. Even at the beginning of the 1800s, China far eclipsed Europe in it's entirety. China was by and far the largest producer goods on the planet and had a comparatively modern army capable of challenging European powers with ease. The majority of the world's trade goods came from China or were channeled through China for pretty much the entirety of the period. As was much knowledge and science, as China was one of the world's main innovators until the late 18th and 19th centuries.

What really killed China's position as the greatest world power was the industrial revolution which allowed Europe to compete with China in terms of production.

The Mughals as well, far outclassed any nation in Europe, and they fell more to internal issues than anything else.

Yes, in the long run Europe turned out to be "more important" (although even this was itself after centuries of feeding off of China and knowledge passed down through trade and the silk road), but most of that didn't even take place until nearing the very end/just after the EUIV time period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
 
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It's still a single European state utterly humiliating China at least fifteen years before he said Europe, clustered as a whole continent, became important.

Of course the Opium War was at least as much about Chinese decay as it was about British ascendancy.
 
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