Wasteland, Eurocentrism, and a petition for an expansion focusing on Africa

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zyphial

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How dare they enhance underrepresented parts of the world with greater historical accuracy and engaging gameplay.
EU4 mechanics make wasteland more historically accurate than the result of not representing it with wasteland. These nations didn't interact outside of themselves and the scramble for Africa didn't begin circa 1600. There shouldn't be fully modernized states in that region for centuries - but given how westernization is effectively guaranteed, it just breaks the game for anyone wanting to play Eu4 into VIC2's time period (and/or converting).
 
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Because they made it more unrealistic in the order to appease those who didn't know better. It's made the game worse, not better.
We don't know the specifics of the implementation so that's a little early to say.

EU4 mechanics make wasteland more historically accurate than the result of not representing it with wasteland. These nations didn't interact outside of themselves and the scramble for Africa didn't begin circa 1600. There shouldn't be fully modernized states in that region for centuries - but given how westernization is effectively guaranteed, it just breaks the game for anyone wanting to play Eu4 into VIC2's time period (and/or converting).
Perhaps they did not interact with outside powers but if you want to play them to play inside the sphere they did work in why should you not? Why is it that africas history in this era should be left unrepresented just because it wasn't yet colonised, that is a very eurocentric sentiment.
 
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Perhaps they did not interact with outside powers but if you want to play them to play inside the sphere they did work in why should you not? Why is it that africas history in this era should be left unrepresented just because it wasn't yet colonised, that is a very eurocentric sentiment.

Possibly because the recorded history is sketchy at best?
 
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Perhaps they did not interact with outside powers but if you want to play them to play inside the sphere they did work in why should you not? Why is it that africas history in this era should be left unrepresented just because it wasn't yet colonised, that is a very eurocentric sentiment.
If there was no or only negligible outside contact, this region would better be represented in a game of its own, with a map that doesn't extend to the coasts..
Inserting crippled nations into the EU4 world is not a good idea.
 
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We don't know the specifics of the implementation so that's a little early to say.


Perhaps they did not interact with outside powers but if you want to play them to play inside the sphere they did work in why should you not? Why is it that africas history in this era should be left unrepresented just because it wasn't yet colonised, that is a very eurocentric sentiment.

Typically for the series in the past it's been the case that if something isn't represented well with game mechanics, then it's best to not include it at all. In the case of the new African areas being added, they basically didn't and couldn't interact with the nations outside their area. What would be the point of having countries that are wholly surrounded by wasteland? Great, they're included, but why include them if they're not going to interact with anyone else in a game all about uniting the world through exploration, colonization, and trade? It'd be silly.

Instead, they made a compromise: remove the surrounding wasteland so they can interact ahistorically with the surrounding area, creating a situation that inherently changes Africa's history in order to suit a different view of how things should work. For me, it's annoying. I like to learn about the area, about the history, and what happened historically. Changing that history because it doesn't suit you is...so very arrogant that it disgusts me.
 
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In the case of the new African areas being added, they basically didn't and couldn't interact with the nations outside their area.
The Kongo could, and did, interact with nations outside their area.
 
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Why is it that africas history in this era should be left unrepresented just because it wasn't yet colonised, that is a very eurocentric sentiment.

Because the way that centralized states work within EU4 mechanics can not at all do justice to the warring tribes within the interior of Africa. The non-coastal African tribes had very little contact with the outside world, cannot be well modeled with the current game mechanics, and the actual known and recorded history of what was happening in the 13 to late 18th century is very limited.
 
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The Kongo was a coastal African tribe though.
The Kingdom of Kongo was no more a tribe than Portugal.

The further inland you go, the much more quickly communications and interactions with the outside world stop.
How is that any different from, say, Europe?

Obviously a coastal region would have more contact with outside forces than an inland area, given that maritime travel (and trade) exists.
 
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How is that any different from, say, Europe?

Because we know quite a fair bit about Europe and it's politics in the EU4 timeline while we barely know anything from the tribes of the interior of Africa, save for things such as them having very little contact with Europe.

Europe also was filled with semi-centralized states while the interior of Africa had no such thing.* And what Europe did was actually historically important. During this time frame, Europe for various reasons massively impacted world history, while the natives within the interior of Africa did nothing to shape history on even a remotely comparable scale.


*The idea and practice of a nation, a centralized state, really did not occur until the 1600's, however the European nations are centralized, well-documented, states compared to the interior African tribes at the time.
 
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To quote the lord our savior Wiz, as he ascended to guide yet another world not unlike ours, "Realism is not a meaningful argument."
 
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Because we know quite a fair bit about Europe and it's politics in the EU4 timeline while we barely know anything from the tribes of the interior of Africa, save for things such as them having very little contact with Europe.
I agree, but that's a completely different argument than the one you made just above.

*The idea and practice of a nation, a centralized state, really did not occur until the 1600's, however the European nations are centralized, well-documented, states compared to the interior African tribes at the time.
The overwhelming majority of European states of that time period were neither centralized, nor nations.


Because the way that centralized states work within EU4 mechanics can not at all do justice to the warring tribes within the interior of Africa. The non-coastal African tribes had very little contact with the outside world, cannot be well modeled with the current game mechanics, and the actual known and recorded history of what was happening in the 13 to late 18th century is very limited.
The game doesn't model the transition from feudal to territorial states in 15th century Europe, it doesn't properly model Muslim, Indian or East Asian state structures, it doesn't even properly model the Sengoku Jidai.

If you were actually bothered by a lack of total historical accuracy, then why on Earth would you play EU4 to begin with?
 
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How is that any different from, say, Europe?

Obviously a coastal region would have more contact with outside forces than an inland area, given that maritime travel (and trade) exists.

Europe has a lot of navigable rivers, for one. Outside of mountain ranges, pretty much any area in Europe was fairly habitable, and relatively reachable by boat in some form or another. Centers of population in Europe could and did establish dominion over every area in Europe, splitting it amongst each other. The end result is that by EU4 times, just about every area in Europe was populated by a decent population of people, with no one area isolated from other areas. Except for maybe Finland and upper Scandinavia, depending on your definition, and the big mountains.

Africa's geography, comparably, was often very harsh. Some areas were plain impossible to navigate for larger entities like armies due to terrain and other factors. The southern bit of Africa that was recently opened up was this area. A place where small groups could traverse, but nothing at all on a state level, making it bad for EU's setting. Anything less than a kingdom that interacted with neighbors isn't an actor according to EU"s rules.

To quote the lord our savior Wiz, as he ascended to guide yet another world not unlike ours, "Realism is not a meaningful argument."

True, in some cases. But at the same time, push it too far and things get unbelievable for people, and so I make my argument that I dislike theirs. They may keep their decision, but I will not like it.
 
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ZomgK3tchup

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You should really brush up on your history if you think allowing Europeans to colonize the deep interior of Africa by the 1500's is "greater historical accuracy".
I believe this fallacy is called a straw man.
 
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TheDungen

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Possibly because the recorded history is sketchy at best?
Yes and it would probably have been better if they had shown up later like the nation up by ethiopia that appears in colonial provinces at a certain year. But since they want them playable and they pretty mcuh only have one start date these days I guess this is what they have to do.

You should really brush up on your history if you think allowing Europeans to colonize the deep interior of Africa by the 1500's is "greater historical accuracy".
Who said that europeans would be able to colonise the area?

If there was no or only negligible outside contact, this region would better be represented in a game of its own, with a map that doesn't extend to the coasts..
Inserting crippled nations into the EU4 world is not a good idea.
They could if more sucessfull than in reality interact with other african nations if never directly with the europeans.

Typically for the series in the past it's been the case that if something isn't represented well with game mechanics, then it's best to not include it at all. In the case of the new African areas being added, they basically didn't and couldn't interact with the nations outside their area. What would be the point of having countries that are wholly surrounded by wasteland? Great, they're included, but why include them if they're not going to interact with anyone else in a game all about uniting the world through exploration, colonization, and trade? It'd be silly.

Instead, they made a compromise: remove the surrounding wasteland so they can interact ahistorically with the surrounding area, creating a situation that inherently changes Africa's history in order to suit a different view of how things should work. For me, it's annoying. I like to learn about the area, about the history, and what happened historically. Changing that history because it doesn't suit you is...so very arrogant that it disgusts me.
But we don't know that it's not represented by game mechanics. And while yes they may not have interacted with others in real history in a game where they or other (already in game) african states end up more sucessfull they may well interact with each others.

Because the way that centralized states work within EU4 mechanics can not at all do justice to the warring tribes within the interior of Africa. The non-coastal African tribes had very little contact with the outside world, cannot be well modeled with the current game mechanics, and the actual known and recorded history of what was happening in the 13 to late 18th century is very limited.
True but the same thing may eb said about a lot of tags already in the game like many north american tribes. And the non coastal african tribes could have had interactions with other african countries in an alternate history, eithe rby them unifying better than they did or by other african powers doing imperialism of their own more sucessfully.
 

Evan05

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Who said that europeans would be able to colonise the area?
In adding nations into the interior of Africa, you make it inevitably possible for Europeans to take over and colonize it. Unless they add some new special mechanics to simulate the lack of any infrastructure suitable for an army and how damaging disease which prevented the Europeans, the European states will begin to get into there eventually.

True but the same thing may eb said about a lot of tags already in the game like many north american tribes. And the non coastal african tribes could have had interactions with other african countries in an alternate history, eithe rby them unifying better than they did or by other african powers doing imperialism of their own more sucessfully.

I have my own gripes with tags such as the native Americans, but I don't see it as relevant for this thread.
 
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Atlantians

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I look forward to playing Buganda and importing into Vicky as a united East African Bantu power. :p
 
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