Wasteland, Eurocentrism, and a petition for an expansion focusing on Africa

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FrigidSoul

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This is why I am skeptical of scientistic approaches to historical questions. Because it is far too easy to overstate their conclusiveness.

Being skeptical is fine, but raw skepticism isn't counter-evidence. That's a crucial distinction, because if we were never to proceed or decide based on the overwhelming balance of evidence available, nothing would ever get done.

Doesn't mean that we're always 100% sure; it just means that 99% is good enough.
 
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tuareg109

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The irony of your pyramid is that your "argument" starts off at "Ad Hominem".

I'm just keeping score, lad. Don't get sassy at me for pointing out the obvious.
 
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thissideup

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Did you read the rest of the post you quoted? Wasteland doesn't mean, "no one ever did or could live here." Wasteland means the area is for all intents and purposes inaccessible to armies.

That is your interpretation. You and gdj repeatedly make the argument that all Paradox (should) have to consider in EU4 are warfare. I disagree.

Also my in-depth understanding of the african colonization may be lacking, but why is the argument repeatedly made that you couldn't move soldiers through the congo basin? Of course its nigh impossible to move through there. But you can reach the great lakes considerably easier from the east and the north. How else could the Islam spread there? But looking at the map: There are only small coastal provinces. Why is that?
 
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Jomini

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In 1444 India had relatively little interaction with England. By your logic the mechanism by which events in India affected Europe was through the Middle East. What is revisionist then in saying: If event X or Y would have happened in India, Western Africa could have been directly affected by Indian politics? In fact on this very forum we have a couple of Indian WC threads. These are ahistoric, but not because the players gamed EU4 but because it is a sandbox game starting in 1444.

Really the question you arise here is whether we force actual (constructed and interpreted) history in EU4 or allow anything to happen but make it possible to get to the same situation in 1821 as it was in our historical timeline - depending on the decisions made (and those of the AI of course).

EDIT: sorry, I seem to be stalking this thread right now. I am heavily procrastinating, you know.
In 1444 the central nodes of world interaction were the Ottoman empire and the declining Timurids. These two empires provided the dominant linkages between India and Europe. Up until about 1470 (give or take) Europe is not central to the international state-state interaction network.

I have no problem with players doing ahistorical things like forming pan-Indian empires from OPMs (the Mughals did it, the OE did similar magnitude stuff in the 150 years before the game's start). My point is that if we want good historical strategy, where the player has to contend with something like the strategic calculus that states faced in the time period, then yes getting Africa "right" is a lower priority (which is not to say Pdox is correct in doubling down on the new world from this metric, if creating accurate strategic setups were the only concerns we'd have refined the hordes as our first DLC, and then gone on to Asia which has been woefully neglected given how important India and China were to world history).


What I have a problem with is people blithly dismissing the fact that new tags come with prices:
1. The game does run slower. New tags are some of the most computationally expensive things to do with the game. Tag bloat for no reason should hence be a priori avoided.
2. Africa loses some of its strategic uniqueness. Historically, Africa was not a hyperconnected region with well defined states that continuously transitioned from one state to the next. It is frankly "Eurocentric" that we open up African wastelands - areas that were treated as such by the major African powers, just because Europe lacks wastelands. An African DLC should strive to introduce actual African mechanics - better modeling of the gunpowder empires, the effects of the Atlantic and Indian slave trade, perhaps the Bantu migration, or having some sort of "unorganized" natives interaction mechanics (e.g. African states can spend MP to integrate natives from uncolonized provinces). All of these are actual mechanics that existed in the period and would better reflect the differences that Africa faced compared to central Asian gunpowder empires (like the Mughals) or India (e.g. Mysore).
3. The AI gets horridly flummoxed when we put in land, but then try to make it undesirable to interact with in the normal ways. The AI is already terrible at managing wars in Africa. This tends not to show up to much because most players, by the time they start seriously contesting Africa, are so powerful an AI nerfing itself to cross the high attrition area doesn't register. But the more places this occurs, the weaker the AI will be.


At the end of the day we come down to the simple question, could any army have marched from a currently existing state, carried/foraged enough calories to emerge in fit condition to fight (e.g. with enough upper body muscle mass to wield period weapons), found enough water to support their transit, and then been able to return after the conquest. I have yet to hear any sort of evidence that answers this question with real evidence. Will your soldiers subsist off even light jungle fare? I know of nothing that is edible for humans that exists in a jungle to supply a few thousand men marching with a mile of frontage (very generous estimate there). Will they carry there own water (that is a huge calorie burden) or drink from the rivers & ponds (high temperatures mean a LOT of pathogens who like human body temperature will be present)? Either option is tough. And so on and so forth.

Looking at the region right now I see no way to move 5,000 men in good order by living off the land over any of the areas people are proposing. Until there is an answer of how this would actually occur, I think it is far, far safer to leave these areas isolated out of respect for their actual history rather than trying to shoehorn them into ill-fitting European models of organized states and accessible terrain.
 
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brobman22

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In 1444 the central nodes of world interaction were the Ottoman empire and the declining Timurids. These two empires provided the dominant linkages between India and Europe. Up until about 1470 (give or take) Europe is not central to the international state-state interaction network.

I have no problem with players doing ahistorical things like forming pan-Indian empires from OPMs (the Mughals did it, the OE did similar magnitude stuff in the 150 years before the game's start). My point is that if we want good historical strategy, where the player has to contend with something like the strategic calculus that states faced in the time period, then yes getting Africa "right" is a lower priority (which is not to say Pdox is correct in doubling down on the new world from this metric, if creating accurate strategic setups were the only concerns we'd have refined the hordes as our first DLC, and then gone on to Asia which has been woefully neglected given how important India and China were to world history).


What I have a problem with is people blithly dismissing the fact that new tags come with prices:
1. The game does run slower. New tags are some of the most computationally expensive things to do with the game. Tag bloat for no reason should hence be a priori avoided.
2. Africa loses some of its strategic uniqueness. Historically, Africa was not a hyperconnected region with well defined states that continuously transitioned from one state to the next. It is frankly "Eurocentric" that we open up African wastelands - areas that were treated as such by the major African powers, just because Europe lacks wastelands. An African DLC should strive to introduce actual African mechanics - better modeling of the gunpowder empires, the effects of the Atlantic and Indian slave trade, perhaps the Bantu migration, or having some sort of "unorganized" natives interaction mechanics (e.g. African states can spend MP to integrate natives from uncolonized provinces). All of these are actual mechanics that existed in the period and would better reflect the differences that Africa faced compared to central Asian gunpowder empires (like the Mughals) or India (e.g. Mysore).
3. The AI gets horridly flummoxed when we put in land, but then try to make it undesirable to interact with in the normal ways. The AI is already terrible at managing wars in Africa. This tends not to show up to much because most players, by the time they start seriously contesting Africa, are so powerful an AI nerfing itself to cross the high attrition area doesn't register. But the more places this occurs, the weaker the AI will be.


At the end of the day we come down to the simple question, could any army have marched from a currently existing state, carried/foraged enough calories to emerge in fit condition to fight (e.g. with enough upper body muscle mass to wield period weapons), found enough water to support their transit, and then been able to return after the conquest. I have yet to hear any sort of evidence that answers this question with real evidence. Will your soldiers subsist off even light jungle fare? I know of nothing that is edible for humans that exists in a jungle to supply a few thousand men marching with a mile of frontage (very generous estimate there). Will they carry there own water (that is a huge calorie burden) or drink from the rivers & ponds (high temperatures mean a LOT of pathogens who like human body temperature will be present)? Either option is tough. And so on and so forth.

Looking at the region right now I see no way to move 5,000 men in good order by living off the land over any of the areas people are proposing. Until there is an answer of how this would actually occur, I think it is far, far safer to leave these areas isolated out of respect for their actual history rather than trying to shoehorn them into ill-fitting European models of organized states and accessible terrain.
you do know there was a kingdom there that had a government that allowed stable successions which Europe never really figured out
 

thissideup

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What I have a problem with is people blithly dismissing the fact that new tags come with prices:
1. The game does run slower. New tags are some of the most computationally expensive things to do with the game. Tag bloat for no reason should hence be a priori avoided.
2. Africa loses some of its strategic uniqueness. Historically, Africa was not a hyperconnected region with well defined states that continuously transitioned from one state to the next. It is frankly "Eurocentric" that we open up African wastelands - areas that were treated as such by the major African powers, just because Europe lacks wastelands. An African DLC should strive to introduce actual African mechanics - better modeling of the gunpowder empires, the effects of the Atlantic and Indian slave trade, perhaps the Bantu migration, or having some sort of "unorganized" natives interaction mechanics (e.g. African states can spend MP to integrate natives from uncolonized provinces). All of these are actual mechanics that existed in the period and would better reflect the differences that Africa faced compared to central Asian gunpowder empires (like the Mughals) or India (e.g. Mysore).
3. The AI gets horridly flummoxed when we put in land, but then try to make it undesirable to interact with in the normal ways. The AI is already terrible at managing wars in Africa. This tends not to show up to much because most players, by the time they start seriously contesting Africa, are so powerful an AI nerfing itself to cross the high attrition area doesn't register. But the more places this occurs, the weaker the AI will be.

I wholeheartedly agree to this! And I would love to see such a DLC!

Now I am asking myself (and in extension you): Is your (by myself bolded) suggestion meant as Pro for or a Con against an African DLC?
 
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Xeorm

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you do know there was a kingdom there that had a government that allowed stable successions which Europe never really figured out
It existed, but that doesn't mean armies could get to them. The area around those kingdoms is harsh. The area at the kingdoms is pretty good though. Once the population density inside is high enough, they can war within the good area to their heart's content. Still doesn't mean the paths to and from the highlands are passable by armies.
 

gdj

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What more am I supposed to prove?

For example, if you had some kind of evidence that the isolation of the peoples in this area was a deliberate policy instead of the result of natural constraints, adding them would make sense, and would give stuff for tons of events and decisions.

Mind you, that is just an example how one could argue in favor of this case...
 
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brobman22

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It existed, but that doesn't mean armies could get to them. The area around those kingdoms is harsh. The area at the kingdoms is pretty good though. Once the population density inside is high enough, they can war within the good area to their heart's content. Still doesn't mean the paths to and from the highlands are passable by armies.
sorry I misinterpreted your post as saying African countries couldn't develop any other form of government beside a tribe. I do agree as well id rather just see the existing Africa get improved
 

Jomini

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you do know there was a kingdom there that had a government that allowed stable successions which Europe never really figured out


You do know that both Luba and Lunda were organized as suzerains with heavily autonomous sub-kingships inside? Right? Federated setups with limited central control was found many times in European history (Iceland being the best documented case). Unfortunately, these sorts of places tended to have more trouble fending off military threats and were commonly sustained only in areas that lacked external military threats due to their isolation.

While this was not as unified a "state" as say the Kalmar union, Luba and Lunda were vastly more "state-like" than the Siberian clan council "states". My objection to including either Luba or Lunda still comes down to:
How do these states get their armies to the coast with period food and technology without the armies dying along the way?
Given that they were surrounded by slaving states, yet were never the subject of even failed slave raids, how economically integrated could they possibly be?
Given that they literally only established formal contact with the coast (or the coast with them) in the early 1900s what makes us think this is plausible in 1500 (or whatever date people like)?
 
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brobman22

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You do know that both Luba and Lunda were organized as suzerains with heavily autonomous sub-kingships inside? Right? Federated setups with limited central control was found many times in European history (Iceland being the best documented case). Unfortunately, these sorts of places tended to have more trouble fending off military threats and were commonly sustained only in areas that lacked external military threats due to their isolation.

While this was not as unified a "state" as say the Kalmar union, Luba and Lunda were vastly more "state-like" than the Siberian clan council "states". My objection to including either Luba or Lunda still comes down to:
How do these states get their armies to the coast with period food and technology without the armies dying along the way?
Given that they were surrounded by slaving states, yet were never the subject of even failed slave raids, how economically integrated could they possibly be?
Given that they literally only established formal contact with the coast (or the coast with them) in the early 1900s what makes us think this is plausible in 1500 (or whatever date people like)?
I mean they did trade with people even before they were a kingdom considering they needed trade for their metal workers
EDIT: I agree with you as I want an expansion focusing on the Africa we have im just saying they probably had trade connections with neighbours
 

Jomini

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I wholeheartedly agree to this! And I would love to see such a DLC!

Now I am asking myself (and in extension you): Is your (by myself bolded) suggestion meant as Pro for or a Con against an African DLC?
My priorities for a long time have been:
1. Better governments for everyone. Sure some places had absolute monarchies where the king was the most important official, but the era saw this model die out to be replaced by government of ministers. I most want a DLC that updates the MP systems to be less random (at least late game) and better reflects actual history. I'd also like to see governments were some of the historical issues (like double RM, female heirs, etc.) that dominated European politics become actual strategic concerns.
2. The hordes. The hordes were the reason that places like China, Russia, India, and the PLC were stymied for centuries. Having to defend against masses of mobile horses literally prevented the states adjacent to Horde territory from adopting a lot of the military innovations that found there way into more secure areas (e.g. Western Europe, Japan). Hordes had terrible mechanics and I'm hoping that the new expansion gives the countries that border hordes a reason to sweat.
3. Asia. China needs some serious work to represent the Manchu conquest, the rebel problems, and its complicated relationship with the Western powers. Likewise, Japan, Korea, and so many other places had a lot of strategic concerns that are utterly absent from the game.
4. Africa. The relationship of African coastal states to Europe is utterly lacking currently. The AI makes the correct decision if European that African states are worthless allies (that is how they are modeled currently) when instead these nefarious alliance of slavers and slave traders defined African history for centuries (African states that limited slaving getting brought low by European guns and warships). Likewise, in the East the network of Islamic - African alliances and trade is utterly nonexistant. Beyond that, Africa had far fewer defined borders before Europeans arrived so I would love for Africa to have mechanisms that reflect this - maybe allow states to "own" uncolonized land for some set of benefits.
5. Islam. Right now the Islamic states face very, very few of their historical pressures. Having some mechanisms beyond random events for piety would be nice.

#2 is finally happening. #1 seems unlikely to happen. and that leaves me hoping for Africa and Asia as nice DLC bait in the near future.

What I want, though, is not just a hodge-podge of "let's pretend Africa is Europe, just slower" or "Asia is just Europe, but bigger"; instead I'd like them to be unique and reflect the strategic tensions that states in those areas uniquely faced (granted there might be some overlap like with Crimean slave raiding).
 
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