Was WWII A Necessary and Justified War?

[keynes2.0]

Versailles left an angered Germany with the industrial capacity to outmatch the other European powers, it was a terribly misguided attempt at pacifying Europe, and should have gone further. They should have honestly undone Bismarck's legacy and created several nations out of the German empire.

No need to go that far. They should have just required that Germany renounce warbonds except for the first few thousand marks held by an individual. That way Germany doesn't have all it's gold going to millionaires who promptly move it out of the country and those millionaires actually experience the bitter defeat instead of seeing the war as a wonderful investment. If you preserve the old political order, it will quickly deny any wrongdoing and fight the same struggle. We see this with Germany after WWI, the US after the civil war and Russia after Glasnot. Gotta clean house like they did in Germany after WWII.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

The conflict was started by France, Russia and Serbia in June 1914. The murders of the Arch Duke and his wife were an act of war under written by France and Russia. The idea that France Russia and the United Kingdom were the virtuous defenders of the rights of small nations is a joke. However what ever the rights and wrongs which began the conflict, it was right for Britain and France to go to war when Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Hitler broke his agreement with Britain and France. The peace demands should have been the elimination of Hitler or handing him over to face trial, the withdrawal from Czechoslovakia, but not the Sudetenland. What was not right was the calls for unconditional surrender from Germany. It should never be forgotten that in 1939, Stalin and the Bolsheviks had committed genocide, Hitler and the Nazis had not.

Right, and in 1939 Germany was the victim of a Polish false false flag operation. Poles disguised as SS troops who pretend to be disguised as Poles.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

It was pure genius by the Poles btw. They virtually made their country dissapear so that their enemies can kill themselves. They manipulated everyone. Got rid of unwanted populace and even managed to lure the Germans into a massive demolition program in Warsaw where they gained loads of new building plots for free.


Oh you think they needed money to pull that off ? Let me tell you where they got it from........

 

[bz249]

It was pure genius by the Poles btw. They virtually made their country dissapear so that their enemies can kill themselves. They manipulated everyone. Got rid of unwanted populace and even managed to lure the Germans into a massive demolition program in Warsaw where they gained loads of new building plots for free.


Oh you think they needed money to pull that off ? Let me tell you where they got it from........

Almost... but it was a plot by the Polish Communist party. The benefits of land trade, the free construction slots and the reduction of the overpopulation are just side effects to the main goal of regime change.

 

[RichStrat]

Right, and in 1939 Germany was the victim of a Polish false false flag operation. Poles disguised as SS troops who pretend to be disguised as Poles.

I don't believe that to have been the case. I find it surprising that you would believe such a thing.

I considered the possibility that you were trying to be sarcastic, but that would make no sense unless you were trying to imply that the assassination of the Arch Duke and his wife were a false flag as is generally accepted of the Nazis claimed Cassus Beli in September 1939.

Perhaps by being sarcastic you were trying to deceive yourself and others that you had an argument against my propositions when you don't. Germany was not seeking to grab metropolitan French territory in 1914 prior to the war. France was seeking to grab German territory. Lets remember it was the Russian foreign minister who first suggested that Austria annex Bosnia. Obviously he didn't make the suggestion because he loved Austria but saw it as a cover for Russia's aggressive expansionist plans. Its one of the great cons of history the way France and Russia have managed to portray the Germans as the aggressive expansionists in 1914.

 

[Easy-Kill]

Its one of the great cons of history the way France and Russia have managed to portray the Germans as the aggressive expansionists in 1914.

I guess it sucks to be a loser. If you want to write the history book, make sure you win!

 

[bz249]

I don't believe that to have been the case. I find it surprising that you would believe such a thing.

I considered the possibility that you were trying to be sarcastic, but that would make no sense unless you were trying to imply that the assassination of the Arch Duke and his wife were a false flag as is generally accepted of the Nazis claimed Cassus Beli in September 1939.

Perhaps by being sarcastic you were trying to deceive yourself and others that you had an argument against my propositions when you don't. Germany was not seeking to grab metropolitan French territory in 1914 prior to the war. France was seeking to grab German territory. Lets remember it was the Russian foreign minister who first suggested that Austria annex Bosnia. Obviously he didn't make the suggestion because he loved Austria but saw it as a cover for Russia's aggressive expansionist plans. Its one of the great cons of history the way France and Russia have managed to portray the Germans as the aggressive expansionists in 1914.

You are right Germany did not want to grab French territory... had they had such a plan probably the war would have ended in Fall 1914 (because in that case there is something to negotiate about: Dear French, we have occupied a large part of your country and there is a devastating stalemate happening, would you be so kind to give us Senegal or something like that). Instead they had some vague goal of eliminating the threat of French/Russians. This vague goal ensured that they needed a total and unquestionable victory, which they failed to achieve.

Note that this percieved threat was more or less real and the French and the Russians were more than happy to jump into the war, but it was the German military leadership alone who was responsible to create a situation where no diplomatic solution was possible, because they escalated a minor Balkan conflict into a world war without a defined political goal.

They just really forgot the whole "continuation of the politics" thingy.

 

[keynes2.0]

You are right Germany did not want to grab French territory...

Yeah, they didn't talk about annexing French territory in 1904. The German Kaiser just talked to the Belgian king about annexing the duchy of Burgundy to Belgium. In return all Belgium needed to do was join a block for an offensive against France to be followed by mandatory membership in a continent wide alliance against Britain (presumably including France? So no more French democracy I guess, oh well).

Because, y'know, they were devoid of aggression.

Germans were just content to sit on their totally-not French land which was so not French that they went around shooting people as partisans during WWI. Because it totally makes sense to shoot people as French partisans when they are in a place that totally isn't part of France. Why, just look at all the French partisans which the Ottomans and Austrians shot. That's the hazard of fighting the French. The French take one look at your peasants and say Wolololo and now they are French partisans. Better round up an entire village as hostages...

 

[bz249]

Yeah, they didn't talk about annexing French territory in 1904. The German Kaiser just talked to the Belgian king about annexing the duchy of Burgundy to Belgium. In return all Belgium needed to do was join a block for an offensive against France to be followed by mandatory membership in a continent wide alliance against Britain (presumably including France? So no more French democracy I guess, oh well).

Because, y'know, they were devoid of aggression.

Germans were just content to sit on their totally-not French land which was so not French that they went around shooting people as partisans during WWI. Because it totally makes sense to shoot people as French partisans when they are in a place that totally isn't part of France. Why, just look at all the French partisans which the Ottomans and Austrians shot. That's the hazard of fighting the French. The French take one look at your peasants and say Wolololo and now they are French partisans. Better round up an entire village as hostages...

Yes no nation other than Germany made such stuff (note that you wrote it proposed territory to Belgium if they join in alliance).
About the wargoals in 1914... they started the brainstorming why they fight in September
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm

Now that thing is harsh, but it was not the official wargoal of August 1914, it just happened to come, because they were sure they are winning therefore they need some evil world conquest plan in the end (the program was really a mustache whirling evil world conquest plan, because it made no sense).

 

[Dracolithfiend]

I made the OP a hat