Was there undue pressure to realease the game while not ready?

[unmerged(25296)]

Well if anything I want a even more complex game. Setting transport paths and asigning where a limited resorces goes frist. Placing my good's stockpiles across my nation, selecting trade limitations on who I sell my goods too...

But you MUST tell people how this works. IE when I mouse over my factory worker SHOW me all the info, what he produces what is his efficiency, what effects he causes.

Document the effects of militancy purlaity and so on. I shouldn't have to bumble around trying to figure it out my self. A simple mouse over text saying purality reduces militancy in democracies and raise in others should not be hard to do.

Next never criple a nation, like by having only clerks but no craftsmen in Mexico. That's just dumb. If you want me to conquest people to inslave to work in my factories give me an option to ship them back home.

I'm sad that this game isn't selling well, cause it is a good game.

The biggest problems are simply the hidden aspect of the game. A player should never be going WTF is happening, why isn't this working! I don't know what this means!

Also toss out beta copies to the semi-Literate people on the forum I'm sure you could have 200+ people (easy) testing it offering advice on it.

 

[Derek Pullem]

A BAD JUDGEMENT call Derek, going toward a pattern.

No Seward purchase of Alaska (deemed trivial by people in europe)
No Gualupe Hidago (Idiotic, it gave the US it's western boarders, and the USA NEVER AGAIN went to war with Mexico because of it)
No WORKING Spanish-American war (FIVE playings as USA, NEVER seen it)

See what i'm driving at? You always see LUXEMBURG formed, yet key moments in US history are deemed 'trivia' or left out due to 'judegement calls.'

Let me tell you something, these details matter, especailly events that provided major change in the world, the 19th century was two stories, Europeans empires, and the rise of the USA as a future mega power.

Your judgements are heavily flawed as to what is important historically.

Yep I admit it - its all my fault. I am the evil one

FFZ - get a life.

The nineteenth century was about the rise of the USA? The rise of the USA was not dependent on Alaska and other gold rushes. Yes the USA became a Great Power- but the century was mostly about the rise of the British Empire as the world Superpower, the colonisation and subjegation of most of the world by European Imperialists and the catastrophy of the First World War which involved the USA only towards the end. America's century was the 20th century. The 19th still belonged to Europe.

The Mexico treaty was a judgement call by Paradox in the end. An event driven solution was proposed but not implemented and this might make it in to a later patch - who knows? The Spanish American war does trigger - I've seen it several times (although not all the time - probably around 40-50% of my games). (BTW - I thought the US and Mexico had clashed during both the Spanish American war and WW1 - not full blown wars but shots were fired IIRC).

You can voice your opinions but please - casting me as the antichrist is plain silly.

 

[unmerged(15243)]

A BAD JUDGEMENT call Derek, going toward a pattern.

No Seward purchase of Alaska (deemed trivial by people in europe)
No Gualupe Hidago (Idiotic, it gave the US it's western boarders, and the USA NEVER AGAIN went to war with Mexico because of it)
No WORKING Spanish-American war (FIVE playings as USA, NEVER seen it)

See what i'm driving at? You always see LUXEMBURG formed, yet key moments in US history are deemed 'trivia' or left out due to 'judegement calls.'

Let me tell you something, these details matter, especailly events that provided major change in the world, the 19th century was two stories, Europeans empires, and the rise of the USA as a future mega power.

Your judgements are heavily flawed as to what is important historically.

So are yours...

All of those, while not in the game as events, do not need to be.

You can make a purchase of alaska. You can make the Guadawhata peace with Mexico by invading them below the main lines and taking the capital. You can go to war with Spain in order to get Cuba from them.

Those events really are just largely unimportant blibs in the larger scale of world history. No countires history is 100% represented here. The game takes in as many major and minor events as it could, and some got left out. Most that were left out were left out because of insignificance, or because you did not need an event for them. It is silly to complain there's no event for colony sales when you're more than able to make the purchase yourself.
Or no event for a treaty event that you can do yourself just by conquering the right places and suing for peace.

Don't bother to start arguing with me about this as I couldn't be troubled to bother since you can't be nice and show Paradox some lovin.

If you absolutely can not engage in a course of action without some events to hold your hand for you, then write some damn events yourself... The events for the game are deliberately fully moddable just for that reason. And can be written in such an easy script that it makes LOGO look complex. You know that no new events can be added by Paradox because of translation issues. Either you make those events or nobody does.

So mod them yourself and talk about those things on the appropriate sub-msg board, or shut up about them.

-Andy

 

[unmerged(2567)]

You can make a purchase of alaska. You can make the Guadawhata peace with Mexico by invading them below the main lines and taking the capital. You can go to war with Spain in order to get Cuba from them.

Well...okay, I'm not fond of the original author's idea that the game was unduly Eurocentric, but the neglect of the Mexican Cession is pretty huge. The fact that California remains in Mexican hands in 1920 (or at least a big part of it) is a big let-down.

Not that the USA really needs Cali - it seems to do okay without it. Still, though...it's kinda sad. While the occupation of Alaska may or may not have had even the slightest impact on the growth of the US as a Great Power, and ultimately a 'Hyperpower' as they say, the control of California was _vital._ The US would have had a far harder time projecting power in the Pacific, to say the very slightest.

But we're taking this a tad too seriously, it's true. I think that if we separate complaints about the engine from complaints about the scenarios, we'd find that the game has an excellent engine - IMHO, the best for any game ever - and mediocre scenarios with just not enough events for most countries. I want my Carlist Wars!

Erm, anyway, point remains. Viva Alfonso!

 

[Derek Pullem]

I was correcting derek who said that europa got rushered and then they released a patch after it was released, victoria was the same case as well

EDIT: I am not saying that victoria was rushered, but that it too had a patch on the release day

Just to correct something - looking back on my post it was a rather confusing statement.

What I meant to say was that there were far more betas asking for the launch of EU2 to be postponed when it went gold. The launch of Vicky was less of a problem to the Betas because we understood the patch process was to continue with 1.01 aimed at being released at the same time as the game. So the patch was deliberate. That way the game gets another 2-3 weeks development time before it is released. And comparing the two games, Vicky was much more compete on release and much more stable.

Otherwise what are the betas supposed to do between gold and the release date

 

[Theodotus1]

Yep I admit it - its all my fault. I am the evil one

FFZ - get a life.

The nineteenth century was about the rise of the USA? The rise of the USA was not dependent on Alaska and other gold rushes. Yes the USA became a Great Power- but the century was mostly about the rise of the British Empire as the world Superpower, the colonisation and subjegation of most of the world by European Imperialists and the catastrophy of the First World War which involved the USA only towards the end. America's century was the 20th century. The 19th still belonged to Europe.

The Mexico treaty was a judgement call by Paradox in the end. An event driven solution was proposed but not implemented and this might make it in to a later patch - who knows? The Spanish American war does trigger - I've seen it several times (although not all the time - probably around 40-50% of my games). (BTW - I thought the US and Mexico had clashed during both the Spanish American war and WW1 - not full blown wars but shots were fired IIRC).

You can voice your opinions but please - casting me as the antichrist is plain silly.

The 19th century was definitely Europe's era. The 20th century marked the rise of the U.S.

As for Guadalupe Hidalgo, I'd say the VIP version is just fine. One of Victoria's outstanding qualities is that it's so easily modded. After I realized how much could be done by VIP, I had a different outlook on things than before.

After 30 years of playing wargames, Victoria is the best I've ever seen. And we should all thank Derek and everyone else who made it actual. I expect it was immense work.

 

[Theodotus1]

Just to correct something - looking back on my post it was a rather confusing statement.

What I meant to say was that there were far more betas asking for the launch of EU2 to be postponed when it went gold. The launch of Vicky was less of a problem to the Betas because we understood the patch process was to continue with 1.01 aimed at being released at the same time as the game. So the patch was deliberate. That way the game gets another 2-3 weeks development time before it is released. And comparing the two games, Vicky was much more compete on release and much more stable.

Otherwise what are the betas supposed to do between gold and the release date

I remember EU and EU2 at release. Victoria was far more perfected than either of those upon release.

 

[Spruce]

Spruce, i dont think you understood my post, or i dint explained myself quite clearly

What insane expectations?

And i am interessed in crusader kings because of the dynasties settings, but maybe because i dont know any game who have it (i heard about 2 games who are similar but still dint had the chance to play them)

And if in crusader there is something that is extremely historical and accurate that spoils all the fun than yes, it will probably not match what i want

ok, sorry - perhaps a bit too hard from my side,

but the whole idea is that the beginning of the victorian era, there wasn't much industrial production of machine parts and paper,

there's however an issue with the AI that's lacking the opportunity to build some of these badly wanted (cash cash) products,

altough machine parts plants can only be build when precision works is invented,

people should accept the fact that Victoria shows you a whole array of options that only will become accessable in the later part of the game,

I wouldn't it call boring anyhow,

 

[unmerged(20006)]

Speaking purely as a fanboy/gamer I have yet to see a game come out that didn't have a few bugs.

I absolutely love HOI and Victoria. I'm a huge fan of Turtledove/What if? type books. And these games give me the opportunity to play out what I have only read about in books. I realize that there are some bugs in the games and Johan and Paradox are great about fixing/addressing them. I commend the effort and am greatful for it.

I'm just glad in the world of computer gaming I have an alternative to the 3rd rate FPS's and Starcraft clones that seem to flood the market.

These games have sparked a huge interest in history for me. I have spent tons of money on books just to learn more about the time periods and events that happen in these games. I know by reading the forums I'm not the only one that this has happened to.

Keep up the good work Johan.

 

[ladner]

The game was ready when it was released. We had fixed all reported bugs, and were convinced that it was great. However, we did not play every single country in all campaigns ourselves, so we had to acknowledge that there would be imbalances at times.

However, it does not seem that we were right, as the reviewers disliked the game, and hardly anyone bought it.

So from now on, we'll focus on games easier to play, and where we can put down enough inhouse testing time to make the games super-balanced before release.

I suspect that the policy we have had of patching games, extending the game with features hurt us more in the eyes of the masses. Of course hardcore fans like it, but average joe just sees patch = broken.

ps. basically, only the sales the first 2 months matter for a game to the developer. The fraction recieved from games in bargain-bin is <0.01$ for us.

Johan, I have to agree with the others you are being far too hard on yourself. Paradox is a small company just to have the volume of games that you have designed published is an impressive achievement, something you should be immensely proud of. I have switched careers from mechanical engineering to information technology and currently spend my time writing scripts, which are extremely simplified when compared to a game, yet there are plenty of bugs.

I seriously doubt that many of your critics have ever written a program in their entire life, or have any inclination of the myriad amount of things that can go wrong with an application. Or for that matter how difficult it is to get an application to work across a multitude of systems due to the differing hardware.

As others have said most of the critics are part of the FPS twitch crowd. So don't get discouraged and keep up the good work. I only wish that I had the talent to do what you do for a living, and I would not be surprised if your most vociferous critics were only jealous.

 

[mcicet]

Speaking purely as a fanboy/gamer I have yet to see a game come out that didn't have a few bugs.

I absolutely love HOI and Victoria. I'm a huge fan of Turtledove/What if? type books. And these games give me the opportunity to play out what I have only read about in books. I realize that there are some bugs in the games and Johan and Paradox are great about fixing/addressing them. I commend the effort and am greatful for it.

I'm just glad in the world of computer gaming I have an alternative to the 3rd rate FPS's and Starcraft clones that seem to flood the market.

These games have sparked a huge interest in history for me. I have spent tons of money on books just to learn more about the time periods and events that happen in these games. I know by reading the forums I'm not the only one that this has happened to.

Keep up the good work Johan.

This is exactly my experience, I had a interest in history prior to EU coming out, but EU accelerated my interest to levels of hunting down books from shops on 15th-19th century European history. God, I have maybe 20 books on that period alone now, I had 0 till then.

I pushed past all bugs, problems & frustrations with all subsequent paradox releases only because at the end of the day, the games were a revolution to my gaming experiences, as i know many on these forums will attest, nothing absorbed my attention & hours like EU, except maybe civ1 all those years ago :rofl: . If you can put up with a wife, girlfriend, sibling or mate’s shortcomings because deep down you like them, then you can do the same with these games, sure they cost money (so do girlfriends) but , in my experience, every cent has been worth it, no one forced me into it , I gravitated towards it.

Oh and by the way Dinsdale, there must be a hell of a lot of conspiracy theorists out there :rofl:

 

[november]

Whew…I read the whole thread. Theodutus1 has good advice, you should heed it.

I remember the excitement and clamor when Vicky was released and thought “There’s gold in them hills.” And I’m right.

You guys need a publisher with deep pockets that will let—no insist—you make the grand complex games that only you guys can make. He would also insist you make spin-off games (the American Civil War with the Vicky engine, for example).
It’s urgent that you get the right publishing/marketing team.

As for the complainers? Forget them!

 

[unmerged(20006)]

This is exactly my experience, I had a interest in history prior to EU coming out, but EU accelerated my interest to levels of hunting down books from shops on 15th-19th century European history. God, I have maybe 20 books on that period alone now, I had 0 till then.

I knew it. I'm not the only one.

I didn't have a single book on Ironclads or warships. Now I have 10 of them. :rofl:

 

[Theodotus1]

Whew…I read the whole thread. Theodutus1 has good advice, you should heed it.

I remember the excitement and clamor when Vicky was released and thought “There’s gold in them hills.” And I’m right.

You guys need a publisher with deep pockets that will let—no insist—you make the grand complex games that only you guys can make. He would also insist you make spin-off games (the American Civil War with the Vicky engine, for example).
It’s urgent that you get the right publishing/marketing team.

As for the complainers? Forget them!

I perceive Paradox will do well just by finding a publisher who can actually get their product on the shelves reliably. (How difficult that would be, I don't know.) I've had problems getting my hands on everything I've ever bought by them. And with Victoria I had the most difficulties of all in finding a copy. I ended up buying Pax Romana first because I couldn't find a copy of Vicky. (As for PR, let's just say that if you want to see an unfinished product, check out version 1.0 there.)

 

[Arado]

Wow, i didnt expect this thread to explode with so many replies and views in only 24 hours!!!! I didnt even have a chance to defend myself. I love Victoria and I can't wait to see its major bugs fixed. I suppose what led me to believe that the game was not ready is that it had some major flaws like the production values being 10X what they were supposed to be, the populatin growth bug, and a few other major ones we are tired of. Keep up the good work guys, if it takes 12 months for you to release the next patch, please take your time. Perfection in the end is all that matters.
Regards, and thank you.

 

[Gwalcmai]

I'll just drop my two cents in and comment about something that was said several pages back. It's about the Lamborghini > Volvo > Kia thing, with which I disagree. A Lamborghini is like a FPS : flashy, high-maintenance, requires top of the line roads to run comfortably. You wouldn't drive it to work everyday. And it's pretty simple, the only thing to do with it is go fast.

Besides, Paradox is swedish. They make Volvos. Strong, safe, all-round great cars. You can drive them to work, you can drive them to play. And, as Volvos go, the V40 is nice and roomy (EU2), the S40 is also nice but gives you a bit less space (HOI), but Victoria is the XC70. Has all the advantages of V40, but will take you everywhere. I will admit, though, that Paradox did somewhat go easy on the extras (events) with it.

As for publishers, how easy/hard it is to find, etc, I'd say that there is probably something in that. People on the boards were complaining about not finding the game on sale, shipping delays, not very helpful customer service... And these were people who were looking for it. I'm sure there are a lot more people interested in this kind of game than those that bought Victoria. They just don't know it (Victoria or their interest ).

 

[unmerged(14393)]

These games have sparked a huge interest in history for me. I have spent tons of money on books just to learn more about the time periods and events that happen in these games. I know by reading the forums I'm not the only one that this has happened to.

Same thing for me. I´ve seen thousands of films, heard thousands of songs, read hundreds of books, and listened to hundreds of albums..and played many, many games.
But it was not until I´ve played a paradox game (first EU 2, and then HOI) that a source of entertainement rocked my world to a degree where it actually changed my life, at least to an extent. Before these games history meant nothing to me...now I am all over it, trying to absorb every piece of information I can find about history.

I truly hope Paradox won´t be forced to compromise too much with their view on what makes a good game in the future.

Mu worst nightmare is that first they have got to give up complexity...then history...and then they will start making Conan games, and RTS-games taking place in space or some Hobbit infested world.

 

[unmerged(6618)]

I had a hell of a time finding the game in Canada, and when I did I got the only copy from the store. Walk-up sales may not even count for the majority of PC sales (I don't know), but they DO represent a larger chunk of the "new to series etc." "casual buyer" sales. I bought EUI as a walk-up, pure chance--which has turned into 3 total sales. As it was, I imagine Victoria only reached those who already knew about it, either in advertising or in past paradox games. And considering HOI had both the broadest appeal and was probably worst out of the box and shortly after, and advertising for such games is necessarily slight...

 

[unmerged(16676)]

Yep I admit it - its all my fault. I am the evil one

I used your post because YOU said it was judgement call, you had best learn to take constructive critism if you want to be taken seriously.

FFZ - get a life.

See my above statement.
This is an extremly immature comment, if you wish to speak for Paradox, you had best learn to control your emotions, lest they make a fool of you, as you did with the first two comments.

The nineteenth century was about the rise of the USA?

Are you aware that by 1900 that better then 40% of THE WORLD's manufactured goods were produced in the USA?
That by the end of the great war, the USA's manufacturing potenial was higher then the next three powers combined?

The rise of the USA was not dependent on Alaska and other gold rushes.

They are just as significant, in fact more so, then many of the in-game events.

Yes the USA became a Great Power- but the century was mostly about the rise of the British Empire as the world Superpower, the colonisation and subjegation of most of the world by European Imperialists and the catastrophy of the First World War which involved the USA only towards the end. America's century was the 20th century. The 19th still belonged to Europe.

I don't dispute this in the least, but some MAJOR factors of the world's development are not in the game, and the designer bemaons poor sales. This is part of the reason for it, as well as this attitude your displaying. Like it or not, if Paradox wants a larger chunk of US dollars, it had best cater somewhat to the USA's development.

The Mexico treaty was a judgement call by Paradox in the end. An event driven solution was proposed but not implemented and this might make it in to a later patch - who knows?

I only use this example because it usually leads to a string of rediculous USA/Mexican wars that are as pointless as they are ahistorical. If Mexico in the game accepts the same treaty as in reality, a large chuck of pointless wars end.

The Spanish American war does trigger - I've seen it several times (although not all the time - probably around 40-50% of my games). (BTW - I thought the US and Mexico had clashed during both the Spanish American war and WW1 - not full blown wars but shots were fired IIRC).

I have NEVER seen it in more then 30 playings of Victoria with many powers, including the USA, and Spain.

You can voice your opinions but please - casting me as the antichrist is plain silly.

That would certainly be true if I had, but I did not.

You read it that way, take a tip from me, step back and try to be objective in the future, being defensive and throwing out childish insults serves no purpose.

 

[unmerged(16676)]

So are yours...

Not at all my friend.
When you see a game about the 19th century, it is hardly a strech to expect to see some very basic things in it, like the california gold rush, and several other mentioned events.

All of those, while not in the game as events, do not need to be.

I don't disagree, I was simply pointing out a salient fact about the game's events.

You can make a purchase of alaska. You can make the Guadawhata peace with Mexico by invading them below the main lines and taking the capital. You can go to war with Spain in order to get Cuba from them.

You can also recreate the german Empire by attacking every little state, or creating small nations like Lux by simply giving them independance.
I'm aware of what the game can do, I like the game very much, BUT, and as always, those are those nasty buts, I'd like to see it get better.

Those events really are just largely unimportant blibs in the larger scale of world history. No countires history is 100% represented here. The game takes in as many major and minor events as it could, and some got left out. Most that were left out were left out because of insignificance, or because you did not need an event for them. It is silly to complain there's no event for colony sales when you're more than able to make the purchase yourself.

There seems to be a dis-connect somewhere, I know how the game works and simply would like to see some things work better.

Or no event for a treaty event that you can do yourself just by conquering the right places and suing for peace.

I think I covered this earlier.

Don't bother to start arguing with me about this as I couldn't be troubled to bother since you can't be nice and show Paradox some lovin.

Ha ha, follow the link in my signature, look up "reviews" and read my Victoria review. I believe you will see, I was and remain a very enthusiastic supporter of Paradox and Victoria.

If you absolutely can not engage in a course of action without some events to hold your hand for you, then write some damn events yourself... The events for the game are deliberately fully moddable just for that reason. And can be written in such an easy script that it makes LOGO look complex. You know that no new events can be added by Paradox because of translation issues. Either you make those events or nobody does.

I could simply code my own game, and build my own rules...do you see how pointless that kind of comment is? The idea is to look for ways for the game to be better, not to say "if you don't like it, make your own."
I have no desire to make my own.

So mod them yourself and talk about those things on the appropriate sub-msg board, or shut up about them.

-Andy

I think my above statement addresses this.

The idea is to discuss ways to improve the game OBJECTIVILY, not respond emotionally, as these to gentalmen did.

I'm on your side here, I love the game.